Reasonable expectations....

[tiramisu]

At the end of year 1 I put on well over 30 pounds of lean muscle.
At the end of year 2 I'm on track for about 15 pounds of lean gain.

What does the curve usually look like? Will it continue to half or will it flatten out somewhere?

ala...
30
15
7.5
3.25
1.125

not that there's anything wrong with putting 60 pounds of muscle on in 5 years but I start to wonder how you guys stay motivated to continue after year 3 or 4.

[natenator]

45lbs of MUSCLE in 2 years? Assisted?

[tiramisu]

heavily assisted.

[Ritch]

You bring up an interesting topic. To go from 150 to 200lbs it took me about 4 years. Once I got to 200lbs the struggle really began even with all the mega eating. Food wise I`d eat 600grams of carbs a day 200grams of protein and a good 100-150 grams of fat. However strength did keep going up. That and a mega huge cheat day once a week, the likes I can`t believe I used to eat... At one point I weighed 220 at the age of 22, still natural, but man my waist was out of control! At that time however I didn`t care about being lean.

You mention staying motivated. It does suck when your gains kinda stall but the look you get from the extra years does account for something. I mean take a guy who`s 30 and weighs 200lbs who`s been training for 15 years versus the guy who weighs the same but has been training for say 5 years. The look of the guy who`s been at it for 15 is vastly superior... Something money can`t buy and is what I take pride in having myslef as I know most don`t have the motivation to stay at it the time I have to get what I have...

So weight gain although it would be nice if it kept going up, is not everything to take into account. But the point you mentioned is often when guys start using gear to get bigger...

But man it sucks how much effort and dedication it takes to get bigger from a certain point and how easily it`s lost when you stop. The fact it`s so temporary is the aspect of bodybuilding I find the most frustrating as I get skinny fast if I have to stop for a period longer than 4 weeks and getting back to where you were although will take you less time it took to get there is still a struggle.

I`m really thinking of cruising at the weight I`m at now and progressively get leaner as what`s need to grow bigger and the extremes it involves dosen`t interest me much more. The bulks are more suffering as the cuts and you never get to enjoy just looking good which was the whole reason I started this hobby.

[cog]

Good post Ritch.Very sensible for the long term.No night time IV setup for you I am guessing.:)

[Danger]

Of course diminishing returns exist or everyone would be huge after like 2-3 years, I went from 160 -> 220 in a little less than 2 years, but at the time I had a job that involved jackhammering and shoveling 10-12 hours a day as well as hitting the gym.

Im just now getting to the point where I dont see weekly weight/strength increases anymore, seems to take 3-4 weeks now to see any changes in the mirror. But on the other hand at least im big enough now that when I do make some progress people actually notice; no one seemed to notice I was going to the gym at all until I hit 180-190.

I think 1lb of muscle makes a MUCH bigger difference on someone who is already big where it might go completely un-noticed on someone smaller.

[Ritch]

Good post Ritch.Very sensible for the long term.No night time IV setup for you I am guessing.:)

Ha! But could you imagine how effective an IV filling you with bcaa`s and all sorts of other bodybuilding supps would be? Bushidobadboy on t-nation had done something in that line over at t-nation.

[gregdoucette]

Its definetely not a linear regression and I canot imagine that its actually all muscle that is gained. I gained 45 lbs of muscle in 15 year I'd say ur gonna gain 4-8 lbs of muscle a year after your initial year or 2 of beginner gains when your body is furthest away from its genetic limit.

[ta-kid]

Hey you are just starting with many hills and valleys.To keep the gains coming,not only do you have to Train hard,but smart also.It comes easier to some and others harder.There are so many variables and responses to different body types,chemistry and budjet.
I am 53 now,started bodybuilding rather late at 23 at 6 foot 4 and 195 lbs.You could play my ribs like a musical instrament.Took me until my early 30,s to reach 235lbs after much wieght gain powder.Then better supplements came along,Amino,s and many others and i learned that intensity was the trick in training,not just big wieghts ,and I crawled my way up to 250lbs by the time I was 35.THEN CREATINE HIT THE MARKET.It was expensive when it first came out but after I started using it I climbed to 288lbs by the time i was 40 and had my best lifting.
Yea i was carrying a bit more bodyfat at that time but i was my strongest then also but after years of training ,and shrinking to 6 foot 3 ,after all the deadlifts and squats i did for so many years,I walked away from it at 43 years old .Don,t ask,there was many reasons.
Looking back I would say the most important factor for my size increase was being consistant in my training,having a good partener to push you, and sticking to the basics even after I was already big for my size.I did not pay much attention to my diet back then,I even smoked for a lot of those years, just like some of the professional bodybuilders of the day.I know better now.
I have been back at the Gym off and on for ten years ,usually only for a couple mnths ata time,lost 30 lbs and then just this year i decided to get serious again.Thank god for muscle memory, better nutritian these days and a new drive to get bigger but leaner then ever.Already at 265 with a lot less bodyfat.It feels good to be strong again.
Sorry for rambling on guys,but I never did see a pattern so much in my size gains.It was up and down all the time.When ever i hit a plateau I would just do something off the wall to blast through it and continue on when I felt stale.Never used steroids but tried many different supplements over the years,some worked some didn,t.

[CanadianIron]

1st year, all natural, I put on 25lbs. Year 2 all natural I put on another 20lbs, and this year with 2 cycles I put on another 20lbs. IMO you jumped on the gear too early, but you should expect the weight to keep piling on if your diet/training is in check.

[Big D]

Hey you are just starting with many hills and valleys.To keep the gains coming,not only do you have to Train hard,but smart also.It comes easier to some and others harder.There are so many variables and responses to different body types,chemistry and budjet.
I am 53 now,started bodybuilding rather late at 23 at 6 foot 4 and 195 lbs.You could play my ribs like a musical instrament.Took me until my early 30,s to reach 235lbs after much wieght gain powder.Then better supplements came along,Amino,s and many others and i learned that intensity was the trick in training,not just big wieghts ,and I crawled my way up to 250lbs by the time I was 35.THEN CREATINE HIT THE MARKET.It was expensive when it first came out but after I started using it I climbed to 288lbs by the time i was 40 and had my best lifting.
Yea i was carrying a bit more bodyfat at that time but i was my strongest then also but after years of training ,and shrinking to 6 foot 3 ,after all the deadlifts and squats i did for so many years,I walked away from it at 43 years old .Don,t ask,there was many reasons.
Looking back I would say the most important factor for my size increase was being consistant in my training,having a good partener to push you, and sticking to the basics even after I was already big for my size.I did not pay much attention to my diet back then,I even smoked for a lot of those years, just like some of the professional bodybuilders of the day.I know better now.
I have been back at the Gym off and on for ten years ,usually only for a couple mnths ata time,lost 30 lbs and then just this year i decided to get serious again.Thank god for muscle memory, better nutritian these days and a new drive to get bigger but leaner then ever.Already at 265 with a lot less bodyfat.It feels good to be strong again.
Sorry for rambling on guys,but I never did see a pattern so much in my size gains.It was up and down all the time.When ever i hit a plateau I would just do something off the wall to blast through it and continue on when I felt stale.Never used steroids but tried many different supplements over the years,some worked some didn,t.

thats really interesting, thanks for the post.

[tiramisu]

1st year, all natural, I put on 25lbs. Year 2 all natural I put on another 20lbs, and this year with 2 cycles I put on another 20lbs. IMO you jumped on the gear too early, but you should expect the weight to keep piling on if your diet/training is in check.

I suppose I did jump the gun but being as I'm in my forties I suspect that I have a very fairly short runway.

[tiramisu]

Its definetely not a linear regression and I canot imagine that its actually all muscle that is gained. I gained 45 lbs of muscle in 15 year I'd say ur gonna gain 4-8 lbs of muscle a year after your initial year or 2 of beginner gains when your body is furthest away from its genetic limit.

Thanks, this is the answer to my question. I'd kind of like to reach 250 @ 8%. If I'm persistent I can probably hit that around year 6 or 7.

Estimated gains were for muscle rather than bodyweight based on 5 point caliper and weight. To add perspective:

a) I did 5 years on the couch however so I was skinny/fat
b) I've lifted on and off for 20 years - I don't know if I believe in muscle memory but I didn't have to learn to lift intensely
c) I drank a gallon of milk a day plus meals and squated 3 times a week for 18 months (starting strength program)
d) 4 cycles in 20 months, primarily test, tbol and tren or npp with hgh/insulin towards the end*

*note
- I put on plenty of fat with the muscle, it was no lean bulk and it took 20 weeks of palumbo to lean down. I won't put on that much fat again. Two reasons - It was uncomfortable and my new maintenance calorie requirements are too high. When I started my BMR with activity was around 2700 now it's around 3200. Just keeping the weight I've gained requires fairly dedicated eating.

- hgh was too expensive (kept some fat off while eating but cardio is cheaper)

- insulin wasn't all it was hyped to be - If you are already growing like a weed there's not a lot you can do to grow more.

- I went up to 1750 mg on the test but it gave me nasty cystic acne. Accutane was required and the scarring is still fading. I'm back down to a gram and likely to go lower as diet (total calories) was the limiting factor for growth and I felt like a pregnant woman eating all the time.

- tbol - I started with dbol and had blood pressure issues, tbol still gives me back pumps but is less evil

- tren - human pin cushion 100 mg/day - I got very tired of poking. tren sweat were evil the first time round but low carbs really helped. Strength and muscle hardness. I like tren but aggression and sweating are real.

- npp - again human pin cushion 100 mg/day, other than the pokes my joints felt good, strength was up felt a little puffy (not as much as dbol). I like npp for the low negative sides. It's not dramatic but it works.

[Praetorian]

45lbs of MUSCLE in 2 years? Assisted?

45lbs of weight...not lean muscle...there is a massive difference..
P

[natenator]

45lbs of weight...not lean muscle...there is a massive difference..
P
he said lean muscle in this opening post.

[Praetorian]

he said lean muscle in this opening post.

Yes thats what i was responding to...no one is gaining 45lbs of lean muscle in two years...you will gain the most as Greg posted in the first few years but not 45lbs...bodyweight yes lean muscle no. Most people are shocked at how much muscle they actually carry...most guys walking around the gym at 250lbs cannot believe they hit the light heavy class at 195-197 when they finally get shredded...trust me lean weight is highly misjudged.
P

[natenator]

Yes thats what i was responding to...no one is gaining 45lbs of lean muscle in two years...you will gain the most as Greg posted in the first few years but not 45lbs...bodyweight yes lean muscle no. Most people are shocked at how much muscle they actually carry...most guys walking around the gym at 250lbs cannot believe they hit the light heavy class at 195-197 when they finally get shredded...trust me lean weight is highly misjudged.
P
oh, I know which is why I had to point that out lol.

[tiramisu]

Starting weight 210 @ 25% BF, Current 230 @ 13%
- Lean Body weight change of 42.6 pounds ( I went up to 250 at my max weight bulking 43' waist, currently 32" waist )
- Height 5' 9"

5 point caliper done by me.
While BF may not be correct it is relatively correct.
Could be as high as 28 and 16 on the BF and I wouldn't be too surprised.

Waving your arms around and saying it's impossible doesn't change the fact that it's simply true.

[tiramisu]

The question I raised is what should my realistic expectations should be going forward. Easy gains seem to be done. Strength is going up wonderfully but weight gain is becoming quite difficult. Breaking past 230 has been very very tough.

I'm going try to lean out through to spring and get down to high single digits of BF before I have another run at weight gain. It seem like I'm going to have to start eating anything that moves.

[CanadianIron]

I went from 150lbs 3 years ago, to 215 now. 65lbs in 3 years, and my waist is the exact same size. Im aware that I've likely put on 10-20lbs of fat, but Id say MOST of the weight is muscle. The size I've put on my chest/back/shoulders could be measured in feet if you added it all up. I totally think you could have put on 45lbs of muscle in a couple years.

When 250lb'ers cut to 195 for a comp, they are taking off weight that normally wouldnt go. A lot of the weight they are cutting is from places where we havent counted our own...

Sure I might cut down to 180lbs right now if I went into a comp. But If I had cut to the same BF before I started training I would have been 125lbs...

If I put on 65lbs and I my abs look the same and BF measures up the same, you have to assume its mostly muscle.

[LondonMuscle]

i think it gets harder to gain muscle the longer u train but in my experience you can often times overcome this resistance with applying superior strategies as u progress

when u first start training u are most apt to growing but u also know the least about how to train generally and how to train yourself specifically... the longer u train the more u learn about both

this is my 7th year of training and i can definitely say its been my most productive since i know more than i did 7 years ago


i totally agree that progression is not linear, but i would not doom yourself to each successive year becoming less effective than the previous... as diet and training protocols improve so too will your progress, perhaps enough to offset the resistance to getting bigger and stronger!

by my calculations, in the last 7 years im about 51 pounds of lean mass, give or take... im with prae in that i do find it hard to believe 45 pounds in 2 years

[ironwill]

I went from 150lbs 3 years ago, to 215 now. 65lbs in 3 years, and my waist is the exact same size. Im aware that I've likely put on 10-20lbs of fat, but Id say MOST of the weight is muscle. The size I've put on my chest/back/shoulders could be measured in feet if you added it all up. I totally think you could have put on 45lbs of muscle in a couple years.

When 250lb'ers cut to 195 for a comp, they are taking off weight that normally wouldnt go. A lot of the weight they are cutting is from places where we havent counted our own...

Sure I might cut down to 180lbs right now if I went into a comp. But If I had cut to the same BF before I started training I would have been 125lbs...

If I put on 65lbs and I my abs look the same and BF measures up the same, you have to assume its mostly muscle.

Agreed, big time, but prae wont buy it....lolol...Im going to be up 12 lbs of muscle guaranteed, but it wont be true....lol, unless you scuba dive in to a tank and print off the sheet.....
But if im leaner on stage, and up 12 lbs or more, then it is 12 lbs of muscle, no 2 ways about it, any way you slice it ...its true.....many guys do it.....MANY....

[natenator]

Agreed, big time, but prae wont buy it....lolol...Im going to be up 12 lbs of muscle guaranteed, but it wont be true....lol, unless you scuba dive in to a tank and print off the sheet.....
But if im leaner on stage, and up 12 lbs or more, then it is 12 lbs of muscle, no 2 ways about it, any way you slice it ...its true.....many guys do it.....MANY....
gaining muscle in offseason is expected. Gaining while dieting...

[steve_d]

oh boy...not another gain while dieting thread!!

[CanadianIron]

i totally agree that progression is not linear, but i would not doom yourself to each successive year becoming less effective than the previous... as diet and training protocols improve so too will your progress, perhaps enough to offset the resistance to getting bigger and stronger!

by my calculations, in the last 7 years im about 51 pounds of lean mass, give or take... im with prae in that i do find it hard to believe 45 pounds in 2 years


This is true... I get much more out of my workouts now than ever and I still learn more all the time. Not to mention if you are taking AAS, you can improve on your cycles and add compounds to keep the gains steady. This year Im running test only cycles, next year I might add eq or deca, I think you should look forward to gaining atleast 10lbs a year if everything is in check, up until a point of course.. at which time you should look pretty good.

[ironwill]

gaining muscle in offseason is expected. Gaining while dieting...

nope, i said i will gain 12 lbs of muscle in one yr, i was told it was impossible......and you can gain whilst dieting....lol....but thats a whole different ball game and diet strategy.........

[natenator]

nope, i said i will gain 12 lbs of muscle in one yr, i was told it was impossible......and you can gain whilst dieting....lol....but thats a whole different ball game and diet strategy.........
I don't care what you were told all I'm saying is muscle Gain during an offseason is expected.

That's the point of offseason.

[Praetorian]

nope, i said i will gain 12 lbs of muscle in one yr, i was told it was impossible......and you can gain whilst dieting....lol....but thats a whole different ball game and diet strategy.........

You said you gained 12lbs of muscle while dieting...I disagreed with you and gave you an expalanation why...then you changed it to 12lbs of muscle during the offseason...i said that was highly unlikely( not impossible-lets keep to the facts shall we) but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said fine prove it and I will believe you. This however does not include proof as an emotional concept such as well I look leaner and Im bigger because the scale says so... so im 12 lbs heavier....if we used such things as proof in the health field we would be living in the dark ages still.
As for 45lbs of lean muscle in two years lets put that into persepective...Dorian Yates in his second contest won the heavyweight title in the British Championships (1986) at 210lbs(only 3 years of training). Two years later(1988) he returned to win the overall at 226lbs and got his IFBB pro card. So very early on in Dorian's career he was able to gain 16lbs of lean muscle in two years...thats not even half of the 45lbs claimed here....and with probably the best genetic potential of any BB we know of today.
P

[Praetorian]

i think it gets harder to gain muscle the longer u train but in my experience you can often times overcome this resistance with applying superior strategies as u progress

when u first start training u are most apt to growing but u also know the least about how to train generally and how to train yourself specifically... the longer u train the more u learn about both

this is my 7th year of training and i can definitely say its been my most productive since i know more than i did 7 years ago


i totally agree that progression is not linear, but i would not doom yourself to each successive year becoming less effective than the previous... as diet and training protocols improve so too will your progress, perhaps enough to offset the resistance to getting bigger and stronger!

by my calculations, in the last 7 years im about 51 pounds of lean mass, give or take... im with prae in that i do find it hard to believe 45 pounds in 2 years

100% truth...the longer you train (correctly that is along with proper nutrition, cycling etc) the harder your gains will become. It happens to everyone as your body will fight harder and harder to maintain where it is (homeostasis) and you will have to fight harder and harder to push beyond that point.
P

[ironwill]

You said you gained 12lbs of muscle while dieting...I disagreed with you and gave you an expalanation why...then you changed it to 12lbs of muscle during the offseason...i said that was highly unlikely( not impossible-lets keep to the facts shall we) but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said fine prove it and I will believe you. This however does not include proof as an emotional concept such as well I look leaner and Im bigger because the scale says so... so im 12 lbs heavier....if we used such things as proof in the health field we would be living in the dark ages still.
As for 45lbs of lean muscle in two years lets put that into persepective...Dorian Yates in his second contest won the heavyweight title in the British Championships (1986) at 210lbs(only 3 years of training). Two years later(1988) he returned to win the overall at 226lbs and got his IFBB pro card. So in two years very early on in Dorian's career he was able to gain 16lbs of lean muscle in two years...thats not even half of the 45lbs claimed here....and with probably the best genetic potential of any BB we know of today.
P

and i did gain that while dieting, i never changed it.....I said i did, and then i said i would do it again in off season and you said impossible to both.....unless i scubad ived to 30 feet below sealevel, hooked up electronics and then printed a signed dated report 2 times no less, then you would believe bodyfat percent, because thats THE ONLY way to know if you gained muscle.......lolol...get real man.....
thems the facts jack...sit back relax and wait a few more months then we shall see if in fact i gained 12 lbs of beef.., sometimes no matter how smart we presume we are, we can still learn....

[ironwill]

I don't care what you were told all I'm saying is muscle Gain during an offseason is expected.

That's the point of offseason.

sorry youre way off in left field arguing with yourself dingleballs....lolol...no shit sherlock, i would think one would have an offseason to gain......
youre the most unpredictable fella on this board....i love it, never know whats gonna come from you...lol....all day snap attack....good stuff...

[Praetorian]

and i did gain that while dieting, i never changed it.....I said i did, and then i said i would do it again in off season and you said impossible to both.....unless i scubad ived to 30 feet below sealevel, hooked up electronics and then printed a signed dated report 2 times no less, then you would believe bodyfat percent, because thats THE ONLY way to know if you gained muscle.......lolol...get real man.....
thems the facts jack...just sit back and watch jack, sometimes no matter how smart we presume we are, we can still learn....

You think you gained while dieting and that is very common with inexperienced competitors...however it is not reality and reality sometimes is not what we want to hear. I said you never gained 12lbs while dieting and that gaining that in one offeseason was highly unlikely...please copy and paste where I said it was impossible to gain 12lbs offseason....if you like I can copy and paste the post for you. The other point was I said fine prove that you gained 12 lbs over the offseason and I would offer my services free of charge...but you chose not to...its a VERY simple test...its called hydostatic testing ....no scuba gea required....just your swim trunks. All you had to do was get tested after your contest and then again after your next...quite easy actually...but not so fun if it proves that you didnt gain the 12lbs of lean muscle.
Yes we all can learn...Ive said this many times before...I dont know everything in this sport and Im still learning after 25 years of training and competing....and Im ready and willing to learn all the time...so I left it up to you to prove me wrong...you chose not to.
P

[ironwill]

youre cute......^^^^we shall see....muahahahaha

[GYMBRAT]

ez now girlz ^ never let your pride get the best of ya ;)

[Praetorian]

Yes my fiance thinks so as well...however lets keep to the facts....do the hydrostatic test and prove me wrong....the offer still stands....
P

[ironwill]

Thanks GB for the advice, not required at this time, thats how stuff starts to many people butting in.., but some of us can actually do this without getting mad.....
Im just confident with what im saying, and having fun....
Anywho, Prae, for me to get hydrotesting would need me to drive over an hour and make an appointment and actually be able to get away from work in business hours, not easy for me....
I understand you want proof, and thats why i cant take you up on the bet we were going to wager, because i cant get hydrotested easily, working 12-14 hour days, and then trng etc...., i live in a rural community....It has nothing to do with anything else other than its not that important of a thing for me in my busy life to prove to anyone, unless there was a serious amnt of cash on th line...lol......Not that im scared of being wrong.....you obviously dont know me, its the man that does nothing, that makes no mistakes, i make plenty........
BUT what if you see the results and say, holy piss, that is definitely 12 lbs....will you admit it if it is totally obvious without a slip.....???
Im not elite, not anything special, but doing things much different in all the avenues of prep...

And congrats on the engagement if i didnt already say it elsewhere.....

[waderow]

the guys reporting big gains are probably not liars.

going from a malnourished 160 pounder, to figuring out how to eat and lift could easily put on major poundage in a year or two.

the guys reporting these gains will probably not be so lucky from 210 and up.

and regarding lean gains, it is possible to gain muscle while losing fat... many have done it.

in fact, P's website has a lean gaining program....

[steve_d]

12 pounds is WAY more believable (dieting or not) then those saying 45 pounds in 2 years. the 45 pounds in 2 years is just ridiculous to think or believe. I might have posted this already, but I couldn't gain 45 pounds in 2 years of muscle + fat + water no matter what I ate (unless of course you start counting the day of a show when I have no fat, water, or muscle left)

[Praetorian]

Thanks GB for the advice, not required at this time, thats how stuff starts to many people butting in.., but some of us can actually do this without getting mad.....
Im just confident with what im saying, and having fun....
Anywho, Prae, for me to get hydrotesting would need me to drive over an hour and make an appointment and actually be able to get away from work in business hours, not easy for me....
I understand you want proof, and thats why i cant take you up on the bet we were going to wager, because i cant get hydrotested, i live in a rural community....
BUT what if you see the results and say, holy piss, that is definitely 12 lbs....will you admit it if it is totally obvious without a slip.....???
Im not elite, not anything special, but doing things much different in all the avenues of prep...


I understand it may be difficult for you...but with so many variables as I have explained in our previous discussion there is really no way to tell accurately without it. That being said you need to understand that all the information i post freely on this board and to its members is to help them and yourself achieve your goals without making the same mistakes I have. You may not believe me but my intention is to help and sometimes to do this you have to be honest...the problem with honesty is its sometimes not what everyone likes to hear. I have worked with many competitors over the years and after awhile you come to realize what works, what doesnt, and what is really possible over time. I am confident that you will make improvements in your physique as that is the goal of most aspiring BB's. Whether you gain 5lbs or 12lbs really should not be your concern...your concern if you want to improve should be improving conditioning for each show and if you are heavier all the better.
P

[Praetorian]

the guys reporting big gains are probably not liars.

going from a malnourished 160 pounder, to figuring out how to eat and lift could easily put on major poundage in a year or two.

the guys reporting these gains will probably not be so lucky from 210 and up.

and regarding lean gains, it is possible to gain muscle while losing fat... many have done it.

in fact, P's website has a lean gaining program....

True, we can also take a 15 year old teenager and he goes from 140lbs to 170lbs over 8 months and attribute that to his working out...however what we forgot was puberty...so you can see how easily numbers can be skewed. Yes I offer a lean mass program however it is an offseason mass gaining program and invariably you will tend to gain some fat on it but we strive to keep it to a minimum.
P

[gregdoucette]

No one is going to believe u gained 45 lbs of muscle in 2 years natural. Ive only gained 45 lbs of muscle in the last 15 years and I train my ass off and have very good genetics. In 1994 I competed at 147 and in 2009 I was just over 180. Its rediculous to thinkg u gained 45 in 2 years and then 20 more the year after with added supplementation. Honestly anyone who adds 65 lbs of muscle to their physique no matter how skinny they were whne they started would be a monster on stage.
I believe 12 lbs can be added in a year for sure if your using the stongest "suplements". I also believe that u can gain muscle while dieting because I have done so myself and trained others who have.
Hydrostatic weighing is not a good way to see if u have gained muscle. I could dehydrate to 180 lbs like I do for powerlifting get my bodyfat done and it would proabably say I am around 10% and then for 2 days eat alot of carbs water and sodium and weigh in at 210 and the test would probably show about 13% which would be 30 lbs gained of which at least 20 would look like muscle. water weight gained has a density of 1 compared to muscle about 1.1 and fat abotu .9.
When u diet for say 4 months the first 3 months are really not that bad and so muscle can be gained because calorie intake is lower but not too low to halt gains. Gains will be slowed but not stoped. Once mega cardio is addedd and crash diets then yes adding muscle naturally is not goign to happen but it will for sure with the rigth amount of "supplements".

[ironwill]

I understand it may be difficult for you...but with so many variables as I have explained in our previous discussion there is really no way to tell accurately without it. That being said you need to understand that all the information i post freely on this board and to its members is to help them and yourself achieve your goals without making the same mistakes I have. You may not believe me but my intention is to help and sometimes to do this you have to be honest...the problem with honesty is its sometimes not what everyone likes to hear. I have worked with many competitors over the years and after awhile you come to realize what works, what doesnt, and what is really possible over time. I am confident that you will make improvements in your physique as that is the goal of most aspiring BB's. Whether you gain 5lbs or 12lbs really should not be your concern...your concern if you want to improve should be improving conditioning for each show and if you are heavier all the better.
P

Thank-you, and i come freely on this board and offer up my experiences to the newer guys than myself as well.......Im very honest with myself, not overconfident, not under confident...Eyes open learning from some of the best in the industry, and passing along what i learn....Definitely looking to improve my condition in each show.......After i gain a good 12 lbs, 5 lbs would be dissappointing, and i try not to do that to myself......So i will make it 12 or hopefully more, and better conditioned....I know i dont have my own thread to answer questions, but all in all i think im pretty on the ball with my attempts at helping and giving decent advice.........i understand where you are coming from bro, but i just dont agree, i think its sad you would limit your and your trainees to believe you cannot gain 12 lbs of muscle....Im a realist, very successful career, high intelligence, very driven, pretty cute to.....but my best asset is, im an eternal optimist......realistic optimist...So you know what i did..??I didnt go out and hire the first joe that said he could help me reach my goals....But i did a lot of research and searching and found a fella that has a frigging amazing physique, president of a bank, optimistic fella, and has articles written in some great mags, and believes i can reach my goal, not a sales guy, a real working man that told me it wont be easy, and hes on my ass, telling CC to keep on me, and i think ill do it bro....

[ironwill]

No one is going to believe u gained 45 lbs of muscle in 2 years natural. Ive only gained 45 lbs of muscle in the last 15 years and I train my ass off and have very good genetics. In 1994 I competed at 147 and in 2009 I was just over 180. Its rediculous to thinkg u gained 45 in 2 years and then 20 more the year after with added supplementation. Honestly anyone who adds 65 lbs of muscle to their physique no matter how skinny they were whne they started would be a monster on stage.
I believe 12 lbs can be added in a year for sure if your using the stongest "suplements". I also believe that u can gain muscle while dieting because I have done so myself and trained others who have.
Hydrostatic weighing is not a good way to see if u have gained muscle. I could dehydrate to 180 lbs like I do for powerlifting get my bodyfat done and it would proabably say I am around 10% and then for 2 days eat alot of carbs water and sodium and weigh in at 210 and the test would probably show about 13% which would be 30 lbs gained of which at least 20 would look like muscle. water weight gained has a density of 1 compared to muscle about 1.1 and fat abotu .9.
When u diet for say 4 months the first 3 months are really not that bad and so muscle can be gained because calorie intake is lower but not too low to halt gains. Gains will be slowed but not stoped. Once mega cardio is addedd and crash diets then yes adding muscle naturally is not goign to happen but it will for sure with the rigth amount of "supplements".

Yeah bro, i did a 20 some week diet, came out of a bed from being sick and bedridden for 3 months, straight to a move to another province, then i started my prep, so i was gaining muscle in my first couple of months, then about i believe the last 7 weeks out or so, i stopped, and was using super supps, and started them when i started prep, so from clean and sick, to prep and losing fat and gaining muscle....

[Praetorian]

No one is going to believe u gained 45 lbs of muscle in 2 years natural. Ive only gained 45 lbs of muscle in the last 15 years and I train my ass off and have very good genetics. In 1994 I competed at 147 and in 2009 I was just over 180. Its rediculous to thinkg u gained 45 in 2 years and then 20 more the year after with added supplementation. Honestly anyone who adds 65 lbs of muscle to their physique no matter how skinny they were whne they started would be a monster on stage.
I believe 12 lbs can be added in a year for sure if your using the stongest "suplements". I also believe that u can gain muscle while dieting because I have done so myself and trained others who have.
Hydrostatic weighing is not a good way to see if u have gained muscle. I could dehydrate to 180 lbs like I do for powerlifting get my bodyfat done and it would proabably say I am around 10% and then for 2 days eat alot of carbs water and sodium and weigh in at 210 and the test would probably show about 13% which would be 30 lbs gained of which at least 20 would look like muscle. water weight gained has a density of 1 compared to muscle about 1.1 and fat abotu .9.
When u diet for say 4 months the first 3 months are really not that bad and so muscle can be gained because calorie intake is lower but not too low to halt gains. Gains will be slowed but not stoped. Once mega cardio is addedd and crash diets then yes adding muscle naturally is not goign to happen but it will for sure with the rigth amount of "supplements".

Yes you can skew the numbers on any test including hydostatic testing...but if we maintain a very level state..ie not doing anything drastic such as dehydrating, carb loading etc...in essence trying to maintain a very similar condition for each test the results will be indicative. Even with supplementation gaining muscle while dieting is the exception to the rule and yes there may be those that have done it but they are few and far between and they are normally at the top of the gene pool. In reality it rarely happens and for most keeping the muscle they have is doing very well.
P

[ironwill]

Yes you can skew the numbers on any test including hydostatic testing...but if we maintain a very level state..ie not doing anything drastic such as dehydrating, carb loading etc...in essence trying to maintain a very similar condition for each test the results will be indicative. Even with supplementation gaining muscle while dieting is the exception to the rule and yes there may be those that have done it but they are few and far between and they are normally at the top of the gene pool. In reality it rarely happens and for most keeping the muscle they have is doing very well.
P
The only thing you forget to write most times at the end of your paragraph is 3 letters, an acronym of sorts......
IMO
3 letters...

[Praetorian]

Thank-you, and i come freely on this board and offer up my experiences to the newer guys than myself as well.......Im very honest with myself, not overconfident, not under confident...Eyes open learning from some of the best in the industry, and passing along what i learn....Definitely looking to improve my condition in each show.......After i gain a good 12 lbs, 5 lbs would be dissappointing, and i try not to do that to myself......So i will make it 12 or hopefully more, and better conditioned....I know i dont have my own thread to answer questions, but all in all i think im pretty on the ball with my attempts at helping and giving decent advice.........i understand where you are coming from bro, but i just dont agree, i think its sad you would limit your and your trainees to believe you cannot gain 12 lbs of muscle....Im a realist, very successful career, high intelligence, very driven, pretty cute to.....but my best asset is, im an eternal optimist......realistic optimist...So you know what i did..??I didnt go out and hire the first joe that said he could help me reach my goals....But i did a lot of research and searching and found a fella that has a frigging amazing physique, president of a bank, optimistic fella, and has articles written in some great mags, and believes i can reach my goal, not a sales guy, a real working man that told me it wont be easy, and hes on my ass, telling CC to keep on me, and i think ill do it bro....

I do not limit my clients in any way....I always expect the best from them and sometimes they really do surprise me. I also said gaining 12lbs was not impossible it was just a bit unrealistic. However if a client did so I would be the first to congratulate them and keep them motivated to continue.
P

[Praetorian]

The only thing you forget to write most times at the end of your paragraph is 3 letters, an acronym of sorts......
IMO
3 letters...

I guess I could do that if it was just based on my opinion..however I dont post information nor do I give answers to any questions on this board if I haven't experienced it myself...I feel that would be dishonest and misleading. My answers are based on what Ive seen over many years with my clients and myself. If Ive never experienced it I will just say simply I dont know. Do I think gaining 12lbs of lean muscle in one offseason is impossible...no..does it happen frequently..definitely not.
P

[O-Train]

No one is going to believe u gained 45 lbs of muscle in 2 years natural. Ive only gained 45 lbs of muscle in the last 15 years and I train my ass off and have very good genetics. In 1994 I competed at 147 and in 2009 I was just over 180. Its rediculous to thinkg u gained 45 in 2 years and then 20 more the year after with added supplementation. Honestly anyone who adds 65 lbs of muscle to their physique no matter how skinny they were whne they started would be a monster on stage.
I believe 12 lbs can be added in a year for sure if your using the stongest "suplements". I also believe that u can gain muscle while dieting because I have done so myself and trained others who have.
Hydrostatic weighing is not a good way to see if u have gained muscle. I could dehydrate to 180 lbs like I do for powerlifting get my bodyfat done and it would proabably say I am around 10% and then for 2 days eat alot of carbs water and sodium and weigh in at 210 and the test would probably show about 13% which would be 30 lbs gained of which at least 20 would look like muscle. water weight gained has a density of 1 compared to muscle about 1.1 and fat abotu .9.
When u diet for say 4 months the first 3 months are really not that bad and so muscle can be gained because calorie intake is lower but not too low to halt gains. Gains will be slowed but not stoped. Once mega cardio is addedd and crash diets then yes adding muscle naturally is not goign to happen but it will for sure with the rigth amount of "supplements".

He said 45lbs heavily assisted. Meaning he started off his training juiced to the gills. I've seen lots of skeletal muscle up close and personal. One pound of muscle is quite a significant thing. For the most part I think that when it comes to gains in lean body mass, numbers are exagerated.

I like seeing numbers for first competition vs. now. There arn't any other high level natural competitors on this site. It's been my goal for a while to eventually compete as a heavyweight. Although I think legit natural heavyweights are probably non-existent (at least at 5' 11'').

[tiramisu]

So a quick rehash of reasonable expectations post beginner gains:

Praetorian - 12 pounds is a year is a stretch
Ta-kid - depend on the year
Greg Doucette - 4-8 would be fine once your close to your potential

What keeps your motivation up in years 4+ to go beyond maintenance?
Does the quality of the muscle change? Does it become all about conditioning/body fat rather than growth? Do you focus on strength rather than size?

The first 2 years have been a really positive experience and I can see cleaning up the body fat to the high single digits will be a lot of fun as well. I wonder what motivates you when the visual and strength gains are so much harder and longer in coming?


aside:
Greg also said something about 42 and natural ( note my post on the abuse of food and supplements - I was fairly clear that there was nothing natural about the last 2 years )

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13215&page=2 (http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13215&page=2)


My early numbers are what they are but I've reached a point where if I miss a meal I lose weight and my appetite definitely isn't keeping up. I've hit a mental wall in the eating department. I'm actually looking forward to the palumbo diet (god forbid).

How some of you guys break into and sustain the 4-5k calorie days is still beyond me. I just don't seem to have the will at the moment.

[Praetorian]

Great synopsis T!
Even though its very tough to continue gaining...I still strive to do it...its the only way I can realisically train...to push forward albeit small amounts. I think you should also continue. The motivation for myself is just love of the sport and competition...for you it may be something different but no matter what it is use it to your advantage.
I hear you on the eating part...when its offseason I can wait to diet....when I'm dieting I cant wait to eat lol cant win.
Good luck to you!
P

[ironwill]

I guess I could do that if it was just based on my opinion..however I dont post information nor do I give answers to any questions on this board if I haven't experienced it myself...I feel that would be dishonest and misleading. My answers are based on what Ive seen over many years with my clients and myself. If Ive never experienced it I will just say simply I dont know. Do I think gaining 12lbs of lean muscle in one offseason is impossible...no..does it happen frequently..definitely not.
P

you should it makes it more credible.....not just a fact thrown out there by a guy that trains folks....It is your opinion, many, many others dont share it......No biggie, you will see 12 lbs this yr......:D

[Praetorian]

you should it makes it more credible.....not just a fact thrown out there by a guy that trains folks....It is your opinion, many, many others dont share it......No biggie, you will see 12 lbs this yr......:D

My credibility is based on my clients success...all of my clients come from referrals from others or word of mouth. If you would like to speak to any of my clients I can arrange it for you and you can judge my credibility on that.
My experience is not an opinion it is what works vs what doesnt...i have an opinion on what may work better or worse and then yes that would be my opinion...but in this case I am not giving my opinion I am giving real life facts.
anyone can say they will gain 12lbs..why not 20lbs...when you dont have to prove it the sky is the limit.
P

[ironwill]

My credibility is based on my clients success...all of my clients come from referrals from others or word of mouth. If you would like to speak to any of my clients I can arrange it for you and you can judge my credibility on that.
My experience is not an opinion it is what works vs what doesnt...i have an opinion on what may work better or worse and then yes that would be my opinion...but in this case I am not giving my opinion I am giving real life facts.
anyone can say they will gain 12lbs..why not 20lbs...when you dont have to prove it the sky is the limit.
P

ill be happy with 12, maybe more who knows, but 12 is realistic for me IMO........Again that is your opinion, ive seen others do it....I dont live in a cave....lol...ive lived all over bro...I have a number of friends, actually one of my best friends, is 3rd in the country, he went from middleweight to heavy weight in just over a yr.....hes been doing it for a long ass time, teen provincial winner, adult provincial winner, now never placed less than top 3 since he has been in nationals......One example, if you search other boards you see it often as well, be more realistic bro.....seriously....
I did it while dieting, so i have real world experience, as well.....
GOOGLE john meadows, tell me that guy doesnt know his shit....He says it is possible to gain while dieting etc.....So does another national level competitor in this thread.....Why havent you figured out how to do this if you have been doing it so long???
So in essence it is YOUR opinion, not shared by all..........Not yours alone, as others share it, but pls, stop the madness saying it is a stretch, or very hard, or unrealistic, or impossible, which is only 1 step up from unrealistic, or very hard to do, and only gemnetic elite can....Im not elite, so then my interpretation is from what you have said is that its impossible....But then again timewill tell i suppose....:D

[PdH]

P, I'd like to gain 12 lbs. Tell me how. no bullshit. I train and EAT like ****. tell me how PLEASE.

[ironwill]

P, I'd like to gain 12 lbs. Tell me how. no bullshit. I train and EAT like ****. tell me how PLEASE.

he said you cant...............I can tell you how.....PM me...

[PdH]

he said you cant...............I can tell you how.....PM me...

Will do

[natenator]

he said you cant...............I can tell you how.....PM me...
I'm curious where he said you can't gain 12lbs?

[ironwill]

12 lbs of muscle gain is highly unlikely....a polite way of saying can't......IMO.....
He is a polite man, and level headed........so i assume he is being kind and saying highly unlikely, but in reality it is very much like can't......IMO

[Praetorian]

he said you cant...............I can tell you how.....PM me...

I said no such thing....please copy and paste where I said he or anyone else couldnt. I said it wasnt impossible but that it is not something that happens frequently...it is the exception not the rule.

PDH if you are serious please PM me and we can talk.
P

[C-money]

My credibility is based on my clients success...all of my clients come from referrals from others or word of mouth. If you would like to speak to any of my clients I can arrange it for you and you can judge my credibility on that.
My experience is not an opinion it is what works vs what doesnt...i have an opinion on what may work better or worse and then yes that would be my opinion...but in this case I am not giving my opinion I am giving real life facts.
anyone can say they will gain 12lbs..why not 20lbs...when you dont have to prove it the sky is the limit.
P

So none of your clients that are assisted have gained anything at all while in their contest prep P??

[natenator]

12 lbs of muscle gain is highly unlikely....a polite way of saying can't......IMO.....
He is a polite man, and level headed........so i assume he is being kind and saying highly unlikely, but in reality it is very much like can't......IMO
Your putting words in his mouth that he did not write.

And I think we should keep the context to people not novices to working out as we all know how much easier it is to put on muscle earlier on on their training career.

[ironwill]

Your putting words in his mouth that he did not write.

And I think we should keep the context to people not novices to working out as we all know how much easier it is to put on muscle earlier on on their training career.

thats your opinion...If he said dont eat for 2 weeks, you would go by it, and that is cool......You trust your trainer...good for you...
I mentioned a good friend doing it and a very experienced competitor.....
Are you here to add something logical or experiences you personally viewed as others have, or just to aid prae??? Because you parrot whatever he says anyway, so it will be like an echo when debating with you, and prae at the same time....just curious...

[natenator]

thats your opinion...If he said dont eat for 2 weeks, you would go by it, and that is cool......You trust your trainer...good for you...
I mentioned a good friend doing it and a very experienced competitor.....
Are you here to add something logical or experiences you personally viewed as others have, or just to aid prae??? Because you parrot whatever he says anyway, so it will be like an echo when debating with you, and prae at the same time....just curious...
I'm not echoing anything. But your condescending tone says what your trying to offer.

It's funny how you talk about echoing the thougts of others because I'm wondering if you have an original thought of your own? Your experience comes from other people - DAnte, Hernon and now this guy your currently using. You, like a leech, latch on to the ideas and theories of others.

As for Praetorian he is not my trainer right now, however, I do know and have met a few of his compitors over the years at shows and their results not only speak to their hard work but his strategy. Let's see your clients and their placing as proof of your awesomeness.

For the record when someone says something which makes logical sense in my mind I will agree with it. It just so happens he says a lot of things which make sense.

Flame away in your pouty condescending tone now...

[Praetorian]

So none of your clients that are assisted have gained anything at all while in their contest prep P??

To be quite honest I havent seen it yet...not saying that it wont ever happen. That being said without measuring it is very difficult to say for a small amount such as a pound here or there. Have I seen any significant gains during dieting ...no... and I can say that honestly. But again there are reasons for this and if you understand how the body functions while in a calorie deficit especially regarding hormones it becomes fairly clear why muscular gain is unrealsitic. What I have seen is that utilizing a specific type of diet has resulted in much more muscle retained...that I have seen consistently.
P

[ironwill]

I'm not echoing anything. But your condescending tone says what your trying to offer.

It's funny how you talk about echoing the thougts of others because I'm wondering if you have an original thought of your own? Your experience comes from other people - DAnte, Hernon and now this guy your currently using. You, like a leech, latch on to the ideas and theories of others.

As for Praetorian he is not my trainer right now, however, I do know and have met a few of his compitors over the years at shows and their results not only speak to their hard work but his strategy. Let's see your clients and their placing as proof of your awesomeness.

For the record when someone says something which makes logical sense in my mind I will agree with it. It just so happens he says a lot of things which make sense.

Flame away in your pouty condescending tone now...

Nah, to buisy to pout today...Ill leave that to you man......
you sure know a lot about me, i knew a felt creepy at times on here...lol...
keep nuthangin, it looks good on ya.....
When you get through a show, let me know.....lol
I may be a leech, but youre a quitter....
A man like drdnj, had a valid reason to stop, to bad he looked great, so praes stuff works, just may not be the best........Are you calling prae a leech as well, everything he says comes from palumbo...If i wanted to do palumbos stuff, id hire nick ball who talks to him almost daily.....shakes head, walks away....lol.........
Maybe you were nervous..??

[CanadianIron]

No one is going to believe u gained 45 lbs of muscle in 2 years natural. Ive only gained 45 lbs of muscle in the last 15 years and I train my ass off and have very good genetics. In 1994 I competed at 147 and in 2009 I was just over 180. Its rediculous to thinkg u gained 45 in 2 years and then 20 more the year after with added supplementation. Honestly anyone who adds 65 lbs of muscle to their physique no matter how skinny they were whne they started would be a monster on stage.
I believe 12 lbs can be added in a year for sure if your using the stongest "suplements". I also believe that u can gain muscle while dieting because I have done so myself and trained others who have.
Hydrostatic weighing is not a good way to see if u have gained muscle. I could dehydrate to 180 lbs like I do for powerlifting get my bodyfat done and it would proabably say I am around 10% and then for 2 days eat alot of carbs water and sodium and weigh in at 210 and the test would probably show about 13% which would be 30 lbs gained of which at least 20 would look like muscle. water weight gained has a density of 1 compared to muscle about 1.1 and fat abotu .9.
When u diet for say 4 months the first 3 months are really not that bad and so muscle can be gained because calorie intake is lower but not too low to halt gains. Gains will be slowed but not stoped. Once mega cardio is addedd and crash diets then yes adding muscle naturally is not goign to happen but it will for sure with the rigth amount of "supplements".


I wouldnt expect a lot of people to put on the weight I did, as fast as I did, naturally.

Picture the skinniest person you know, at 21 that was me, all ribs showing, 12" biceps, the only place I kept any fat would have been on my stomach. Just under 150lbs and 5' 10". From Jan > April of the first year I started training I went from 150-165lbs. By the end of the first year, no gear, no PH's, I didnt even do protein shakes, I was 175lbs, so just over 25lbs in 1 year. I couldnt say that it was all muscle because im sure I added fat to where some of the muscle was etc, but Id say mostly muscle. Year 2 I went from 175 > 190 (1 PH cycle) and year 3 (this year) im just under 215lbs (2 500mg test cycles)

I put on 65lbs and Im probably just reaching a level of size where a lot of guys begin to try and put on weight. So most guys wouldnt experience starting as "low" as I did. Getting to an average size is IMO easy, your body has no problem getting there. So for newbs with no muscle its easy to put on 20-30lbs a year. I have noticed a huge difference though, since hitting 200lbs. The weight doesnt want to go on the same at all. So once you hit a good size it gets hard. I still hope to keep up my bw of atleast 210lbs from my current cycle and my goal would be to hit atleast 225 next year, add a few compounds etc.

Dorian was obviously jacked to win the British comp, so to say he ONLY put on 20ish lbs in 2 years still says a lot, he went from huge to "huger"... I bet when he started lifting for the first time he put on 40lbs the first year. The problem is he was probably a teen so its hard to say what he would have put on if he waited til he was 21 to start lifting.

[waderow]

^^^ I believe you dude

[Praetorian]

Nah, to buisy to pout today...Ill leave that to you man......
you sure know a lot about me, i knew a felt creepy at times on here...lol...
keep nuthangin, it looks good on ya.....
When you get through a show, let me know.....lol
I may be a leech, but youre a quitter....
A man like drdnj, had a valid reason to stop, to bad he looked great, so praes stuff works, just may not be the best........Are you calling prae a leech as well, everything he says comes from palumbo...If i wanted to do palumbos stuff, id hire nick ball who talks to him almost daily.....shakes head, walks away....lol.........
Maybe you were nervous..??

For 20 years I worked on my own learning and doing what made logical sense to me garnered from a variety of sources. I have worked with many clients using a variety of diets...NOT all keto diets either for if you undertood anything about the body there are times when certain hormones are low that requires a different approach. I have learned alot from many intelligent people well respected in their field....(Dr J. Berardi, Dr M Dipasquale, Udo Erasmus, Brad King, Dr K Kinakin, Dave Alkers, C Poliquin, K Hill, just to name a few) I was already using a keto diet prior to working with DP and his views only verified that which I already assumed. Dave is probably the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to the body and how it is affected either by drugs or nutrition....and alot of what he uses nutrition wise originated with Dr Scott Connelly which helped solidify his assumptions. So prior to working with anyone else I already had the knowledge and experience of training, nutrition and supplementation so I could take what information I was given and make a better judgement on it. To say everything I say comes from Palumbo is is a huge discredit to me and my business and I find that offensive...not to mention attacking other members on this board personally as you have done. Not everyone has to agree with what I post and I understand that and I accept it. Not once have you seen me attack anyone personally on this board with name calling etc...I find a good discussion valuable to everyone and we are all here to learn whether we agree or not.
P

[ironwill]

me to CI......^^^

[ironwill]

For 20 years I worked on my own learning and doing what made logical sense to me garnered from a variety of sources. I have worked with many clients using a variety of diets...NOT all keto diets either for if you undertood anything about the body there are times when certain hormones are low that requires a different approach. I have learned alot from many intelligent people well respected in their field....(Dr J. Berardi, Dr M Dipasquale, Udo Erasmus, Brad King, Dr K Kinakin, Dave Alkers, C Poliquin, K Hill, just to name a few) I was already using a keto diet prior to working with DP and his views only verified that which I already assumed. Dave is probably the most knowledgeable guy when it comes to the body and how it is affected either by drugs or nutrition....and alot of what he uses nutrition wise originated with Dr Scott Connelly which helped solidify his assumptions. So prior to working with anyone else I already had the knowledge and experience of training, nutrition and supplementation so I could take what information I was given and make a better judgement on it. To say everything I say comes from Palumbo is is a huge discredit to me and my business and I find that offensive...not to mention attacking other members on this board personally as you have done. Not everyone has to agree with what I post and I understand that and I accept it. Not once have you seen me attack anyone personally on this board with name calling etc...I find a good discussion valuable to everyone and we are all here to learn whether we agree or not.
Plol...seriously.....???Whom did i attack, pls show me.....And what were circumstances surrounding this ATTACK......??
Youre losing cred with these posts changing words, and accusing me of attack...was it attack or defense...big difference my man.......

[Praetorian]

lol...seriously.....???Whom did i attack, pls show me.....And what were circumstances surrounding this ATTACK......??
Youre losing cred with these posts changing words, and accusing me of attack...was it attack or defense...big difference my man.......


Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator View Post
I don't care what you were told all I'm saying is muscle Gain during an offseason is expected.

That's the point of offseason.


"sorry youre way off in left field arguing with yourself dingleballs.."

Personal attack...with name calling...if you dont agree...thats fine...no need to insult people...I dont see where others are doing that to you...so saying that is a defense is no excuse...and please explain the part where everything I say comes from DP.

P

[ironwill]

Quote:
Originally Posted by natenator View Post
I don't care what you were told all I'm saying is muscle Gain during an offseason is expected.

That's the point of offseason.


"sorry youre way off in left field arguing with yourself dingleballs.."

Personal attack...with name calling...if you dont agree...thats fine...no need to insult people...I dont see where others are doing that to you...so saying that is a defense is no excuse...and please explain the part where everything I say comes from DP.

P
lol....read many (most) of your posts regarding DP, ....Nate doesnt count...he dishes it out, calls names and takes it back in again......If im calling names there is a reason for it........
Hardly a personal attack, seriously....
I think you exaggerated a bit there ....:greet
NEXT

[Praetorian]

lol....read many (most) of your posts regarding DP, ....Nate doesnt count...he dishes it out, calls names and takes it back in again......If im calling names there is a reason for it........
Hardly a personal attack, seriously....
I think you exaggerated a bit there ....:greet
NEXT

My posts range from training, to nutrition, to aas, and to supplementation. with respect to DP my posts are made in reference to his diet when questions comes up...which many on this board use or have used or may be willing to try to I offer that informtion to them...as I have used it myself. When it comes to the other components I have referenced many others such as Dave Tate, Brad King, Charlie Francis, Louie Simmons, etc...name calling is just that...and its inexcusable...I refuse to do that as it leads to much worse things...as a member on this board that others may look to for advice you should set an example and do the same.
P

[ironwill]

OH and btw, i know a natural female competitor that also gained muscle while dieting....Doing the keto diet....Coach figured 135 would be contest weight after analysis.....Then week after week the scale went static, but the bf was dropping drastically, coach thought something was wrong, no way...Then coach saw said client and couldnt believe her eyes........End result was almost 150 on stage, after start of prep was 160, and a whack of fat dropped.........Natural......I live with this lady and saw it, went with her to IFBB pro coaches house and listened to all conversations etc....It happened yet again....not my client, but the client i had great insight on, and my drugs didnt go missing and i saw her diet and saw her nude everyday.....LOOK at CCs avatar, and then look at her log going in on her starting posts........it happened.....
Not like a sasquatch sighting somewhere, it was real....

[ironwill]

My posts range from training, to nutrition, to aas, and to supplementation. with respect to DP my posts are made in reference to his diet when questions comes up...which many on this board use or have used or may be willing to try to I offer that informtion to them...as I have used it myself. When it comes to the other components I have referenced many others such as Dave Tate, Brad King, Charlie Francis, Louie Simmons, etc...name calling is just that...and its inexcusable...I refuse to do that as it leads to much worse things...as a member on this board that others may look to for advice you should set an example and do the same.
P

I do most times, and to err is human, to forgive is divine.....Shit happens on the boards......
I never claimed to be holier than thou, and you dont know my background, so save the judgements my man......I dont judge......nor should you.....
I offer up advices daily and answer many a pm as well, dont have my own thread, nor do i sell my services, so my online personality is not important as it doesnt contribute to my sustinance, as it does yours....
Have i called you a name, or personally ATTACKED yourself or your techniques...tharts all you should worry about in reality....
No to both questions, and you wont see it either...:D

[Praetorian]

I do most times, and to err is human, to forgive is divine.....Shit happens on the boards......
I never claimed to be holier than thou, and you dont know my background, so save the judgements my man......I dont judge......nor should you.....
I offer up advices daily and answer many a pm as well, dont have my own thread, nor do i sell my services, so my online personality is not important as it doesnt contribute to my sustinance, as it does yours....
Have i called you a name, or personally ATTACKED yourself or your techniques...tharts all you should worry about in reality....
No to both questions, and you wont see it either...:D

To say everything i say comes from DP is a personal attack on me and my business as well as saying I said certain things when I did not...such as you cannot gain 12 lbs which you told PDH. This in its entirety discredits me and my business.
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[Praetorian]

I wouldnt expect a lot of people to put on the weight I did, as fast as I did, naturally.

Picture the skinniest person you know, at 21 that was me, all ribs showing, 12" biceps, the only place I kept any fat would have been on my stomach. Just under 150lbs and 5' 10". From Jan > April of the first year I started training I went from 150-165lbs. By the end of the first year, no gear, no PH's, I didnt even do protein shakes, I was 175lbs, so just over 25lbs in 1 year. I couldnt say that it was all muscle because im sure I added fat to where some of the muscle was etc, but Id say mostly muscle. Year 2 I went from 175 > 190 (1 PH cycle) and year 3 (this year) im just under 215lbs (2 500mg test cycles)

I put on 65lbs and Im probably just reaching a level of size where a lot of guys begin to try and put on weight. So most guys wouldnt experience starting as "low" as I did. Getting to an average size is IMO easy, your body has no problem getting there. So for newbs with no muscle its easy to put on 20-30lbs a year. I have noticed a huge difference though, since hitting 200lbs. The weight doesnt want to go on the same at all. So once you hit a good size it gets hard. I still hope to keep up my bw of atleast 210lbs from my current cycle and my goal would be to hit atleast 225 next year, add a few compounds etc.

Dorian was obviously jacked to win the British comp, so to say he ONLY put on 20ish lbs in 2 years still says a lot, he went from huge to "huger"... I bet when he started lifting for the first time he put on 40lbs the first year. The problem is he was probably a teen so its hard to say what he would have put on if he waited til he was 21 to start lifting.

I would concur...BW yes....when i started training I was 17 and weighed 170lbs...in less than a year i hit 200lbs natural. Thats 30lbs of BW not muscle. Over the next six years I hit 240lbs natural...(PH didnt even exist back then) but I fought tooth and nail for each pound and it wasnt all lean muscle to be honest. When I first used supplementation I hit 260lbs...again BW not 20lbs of muscle gain. So yes the increase at the beginning is large...its a phenomenon called the training effect. It also varies with each individual depending on body type etc. But we are talking weight here...not lean muscle.
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[ironwill]

semantics........highly unlikely, have not seen it before, etc.....sounds like can't to me ...In a polite way, as i would say to my child......
Honey its highly unlikely that you will be able to swim the english channel......
I have been around for 25 years now and i train elite swimmers and i have never seen it happen.....That kinda says cant to me....

[Praetorian]

semantics........highly unlikely, have not seen it before, etc.....sounds like can't to me ...In a polite way, as i would say to my child......
Honey its highly unlikely that you will be able to swim the english channel......
I have been around for 25 years now and i train elite swimmers and i have never seen it happen.....That kinda says cant to me....

"can't" is an absolute ie cannot be done, impossible, etc
"highly unlikely" leaves the possibility open for the improbable but possible
"everything hes says comes from DP" is another absolute

These are attacks and are uncalled for period.
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[ironwill]

"can't" is an absolute ie cannot be done, impossible, etc
"highly unlikely" leaves the possibility open for the improbable but possible
"everything hes says comes from DP" is another absolute

These are attacks and are uncalled for period.
P

Attack...

to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.

to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.

to try to destroy, esp. with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.

to set about (a task) or go to work on (a thing) vigorously: to attack housecleaning; to attack the hamburger hungrily.

(of disease, destructive agencies, etc.) to begin to affect.


kinda like you say i attack so easily....lol...see above.....
You exaggerate....so i assumed that is what you meant....
I may have to look back a bit, glad to see you fimnally have come to admit it is possible.....
If you think this is attacking, you need thicker skin son....

[Memo]

i am 5'4, first year naturel i got from 115 to 130, second year natural i got from 130 to 145, and third year natural i got from 145 to 160, i am now assisted higher than 160 and by the end of 2010 i will be probably about 180 if i keep my eating in check. after 5 years of training if I can reach 190 at 5'4 I will be happy.
The pleasure of being a garden gnome is that when i gain 5 pound people are asking question right away.

[CanadianIron]

I would concur...BW yes....when i started training I was 17 and weighed 170lbs...in less than a year i hit 200lbs natural. Thats 30lbs of BW not muscle. Over the next six years I hit 240lbs natural...(PH didnt even exist back then) but I fought tooth and nail for each pound and it wasnt all lean muscle to be honest. When I first used supplementation I hit 260lbs...again BW not 20lbs of muscle gain. So yes the increase at the beginning is large...its a phenomenon called the training effect. It also varies with each individual depending on body type etc. But we are talking weight here...not lean muscle.
P

If someone puts on 20lbs one year, 15 the next, and 20 the year after and their body fat remains the same. What is the weight?

I would expect to attribute some weight to bone density, tendons etc getting bigger, but wouldnt the majority 80%+ be muscle weight?

[Praetorian]

Well as long as we copy and paste the dictionary than that makes it ok.
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[Praetorian]

i am 5'4, first year naturel i got from 115 to 130, second year natural i got from 130 to 145, and third year natural i got from 145 to 160, i am now assisted higher than 160 and by the end of 2010 i will be probably about 180 if i keep my eating in check. after 5 years of training if I can reach 190 at 5'4 I will be happy.
The pleasure of being a garden gnome is that when i gain 5 pound people are asking question right away.

Great progress keep it up M!
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[Praetorian]

If someone puts on 20lbs one year, 15 the next, and 20 the year after and their body fat remains the same. What is the weight?

I would expect to attribute some weight to bone density, tendons etc getting bigger, but wouldnt the majority 80%+ be muscle weight?

Without knowing the details its only an assumption. With muscle gain comes alot of weight from other things some of which you have mentioned. If you actually measured my wrist from when i was 25 to when i was 35 youd see a noticeable difference...this isnt muscle. My point after all this nonsense is that there are realistic type gains that are seen year over year....not only with myself or yourself but with thousands of people...and these gains are not statistically significantly different. Yes there may be anomalies but there are the exception not the rule.
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[ironwill]

Without knowing the details its only an assumption. With muscle gain comes alot of weight from other things some of which you have mentioned. If you actually measured my wrist from when i was 25 to when i was 35 youd see a noticeable difference...this isnt muscle. My point after all this nonsense is that there are realistic type gains that are seen year over year....not only with myself or yourself but with thousands of people...and these gains are not statistically significantly different. Yes there may be anomalies but there are the exception not the rule.
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pls dont attack me by saying my thoughts are nonsense.......

[Praetorian]

pls dont attack me by saying my thoughts are nonsense.......

The nonsense I am referring to is the hijacking of T's thread that is all.
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[CanadianIron]

had to do it...

http://api.ning.com/files/TAQisU8LBDTC4tC2heaDQOeZS-Rrz2YNGCp-ALFZ1sJzULMurkS8G5BTohOglWuUPCEePfSXGLMBkHkrH2gmH7 CuAYuO65-A/arguingontheinternet.jpg

[C-money]

To be quite honest I havent seen it yet...not saying that it wont ever happen. That being said without measuring it is very difficult to say for a small amount such as a pound here or there. Have I seen any significant gains during dieting ...no... and I can say that honestly. But again there are reasons for this and if you understand how the body functions while in a calorie deficit especially regarding hormones it becomes fairly clear why muscular gain is unrealsitic. What I have seen is that utilizing a specific type of diet has resulted in much more muscle retained...that I have seen consistently.
P

what about the scale staying the same and the client getting significantly leaner during their contest prep, have you had any clients have this happen??

[natenator]

what about the scale staying the same and the client getting significantly leaner during their contest prep, have you had any clients have this happen??
I've had this happen many times in the past and recently this summer. I kept getti g leaner but the scale wouldn't move so I get freaked out (ask P how many annoying texts he got from me about it lol) then all of a sudden I wake up one day and down 5lbs.

Go read Fouad's blog. He talks About this in one of his entries last year (2008).

[C-money]

I've had this happen many times in the past and recently this summer. I kept getti g leaner but the scale wouldn't move so I get freaked out (ask P how many annoying texts he got from me about it lol) then all of a sudden I wake up one day and down 5lbs.

Go read Fouad's blog. He talks About this in one of his entries last year (2008).

for me i dont drop 5 pounds... it holds SOLID.. and i know its not waterweight cause usually my carbs are lower and my skin is tight/thin... So P, ill ask you have you ever had a client hold SOLID weight while getting leaner? If yes why? If not why?

[Praetorian]

what about the scale staying the same and the client getting significantly leaner during their contest prep, have you had any clients have this happen??

Yes I have seen that before and there is a good explanation for it. But prior to getting to that...when the scale stops dropping in precontest mode...it is normally due to a number of things...one is irregularity...lack of regularity will cause the scale to stop dropping even rise on some occaisions...mostly due to waste and water retention. Another reason would be stagnating on the diet or adaptation to cardio. Normally once a change has been made in either or both the fat loss can continue. Another reason is water retention and this happens alot...the root cause can vary ie estrogen issues, kidney issues etc.

Now lets just say on average you are dropping 2lbs of fat per week. Now the scale stops and remains the same for two weeks. Do you honestly believe that in the last two weeks you continued to lose 4 lbs of fat and replaced it with 4lbs of newly built muscle...in two weeks?...with a calorie deficit?...doing cardio? does that seem just a bit unlikely to you?

Now think of this scenario...you are dieting and are at the midway point. You decide to take some tren acetate and winstrol...within a week or two you notice that even though the scale hasnt dropped you seem considerably harder and leaner...does this mean that in a few weeks you have replaced the lost fat with newly built muscle or that the non aromatizing androgens have started to exert their cosmetic hardening effect?

So you see there are many variables involved and just becuase the scale stops and you appear leaner in no way justifies muscular growth.

P

[waderow]

how about leaving contest prep out of it....

and consider me, dialing in my diet, modest cardio, heavy lifting, and tren. Over the course of 8-12 weeks getting ripped, and getting stronger, and looking ever more muscular, and the scale staying the same. Was I imagining? I have done this 3 times. My fav way to cut actually, but unfortunately, Tren causes too many sides in the emotional dept. to do anymore.....

[natenator]

how about leaving contest prep out of it....

and consider me, dialing in my diet, modest cardio, heavy lifting, and tren. Over the course of 8-12 weeks getting ripped, and getting stronger, and looking ever more muscular, and the scale staying the same. Was I imagining? I have done this 3 times. My fav way to cut actually, but unfortunately, Tren causes too many sides in the emotional dept. to do anymore.....
Contest prep or not dieting is dieting isn't it?

[waderow]

Contest prep or not dieting is dieting isn't it?

I lowered calories and balanced fat and carbs enough to cut fat, so I would say that is dieting.

[Praetorian]

how about leaving contest prep out of it....

and consider me, dialing in my diet, modest cardio, heavy lifting, and tren. Over the course of 8-12 weeks getting ripped, and getting stronger, and looking ever more muscular, and the scale staying the same. Was I imagining? I have done this 3 times. My fav way to cut actually, but unfortunately, Tren causes too many sides in the emotional dept. to do anymore.....

Tren and heavy lifting with a tight diet will definitely cause a strength increase, as well as a cosmetic change in the appearance of your body. This does not mean that you replaced lost fat with muscle. on a similar note years ago when Para was still available i added two amps per week to my exisiting cycle...changed nothing else. My training partner could not understand what I was doing ...i was training the same as him, eating the same food, taking the same supps...except for the Para...he was convinced I was dieting...until i revelaed the truth to him...he couldnt believe it the change was that drastic.
My BW never changed by the way.
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[C-money]

Yes I have seen that before and there is a good explanation for it. But prior to getting to that...when the scale stops dropping in precontest mode...it is normally due to a number of things...one is irregularity...lack of regularity will cause the scale to stop dropping even rise on some occaisions...mostly due to waste and water retention. Another reason would be stagnating on the diet or adaptation to cardio. Normally once a change has been made in either or both the fat loss can continue. Another reason is water retention and this happens alot...the root cause can vary ie estrogen issues, kidney issues etc.

Now lets just say on average you are dropping 2lbs of fat per week. Now the scale stops and remains the same for two weeks. Do you honestly believe that in the last two weeks you continued to lose 4 lbs of fat and replaced it with 4lbs of newly built muscle...in two weeks?...with a calorie deficit?...doing cardio? does that seem just a bit unlikely to you?

Now think of this scenario...you are dieting and are at the midway point. You decide to take some tren acetate and winstrol...within a week or two you notice that even though the scale hasnt dropped you seem considerably harder and leaner...does this mean that in a few weeks you have replaced the lost fat with newly built muscle or that the non aromatizing androgens have started to exert their cosmetic hardening effect?

So you see there are many variables involved and just becuase the scale stops and you appear leaner in no way justifies muscular growth.

P

It doesnt justify 100 percent of it muscle growth for sure.. there are many factors... but wouldnt you agree somewhat that some muscle growth may have occured?? even if only 20-30 percent of the weight change could have been muscle growth? Because even at the beginning of a contest prep, your calories arent reduced super low.. they are still very close to maintainance caloric intake..

[waderow]

Tren and heavy lifting with a tight diet will definitely cause a strength increase, as well as a cosmetic change in the appearance of your body. This does not mean that you replaced lost fat with muscle. on a similar note years ago when Para was still available i added two amps per week to my exisiting cycle...changed nothing else. My training partner could not understand what I was doing ...i was training the same as him, eating the same food, taking the same supps...except for the Para...he was convinced I was dieting...until i revelaed the truth to him...he couldnt believe it the change was that drastic.
My BW never changed by the way.
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so what on earth causes the BW to remain static, strength to go up, BF to decrease? To me, it is logical that it is a LBM increase

[Praetorian]

It doesnt justify 100 percent of it muscle growth for sure.. there are many factors... but you wouldnt agree somewhat that some muscle growth may have occured?? even if only 20-30 percent of the weight change could have been muscle growth? Because even at the beginning of a contest prep, your calories arent reduced super low.. they are still very close to maintainance caloric intake..

My calories and my clients calories during contest prep dont change at all until normally the 4-6 week out point depending on the individuals condition. By that point you are not gaining at all mostly because you lack both forms of energy fat and carbs. In the beginning technically there could be a small increase yes...but the amount if actually measured would be insignificant really...I wouldnt say its impossible but its not as if you are gaining lbs of muscle either.
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[natenator]

so what on earth causes the BW to remain static, strength to go up, BF to decrease? To me, it is logical that it is a LBM increase
It's a good question and I hope P or someone can shed light it but when below maintenance calories, doing cardio enough to burn fat and training hard it makes logical sense to me that you can't built new muscle because the body needs a calorie surplus for muscle growth.

[C-money]

My calories and my clients calories during contest prep dont change at all until normally the 4-6 week out point depending on the individuals condition. By that point you are not gaining at all mostly because you lack both forms of energy fat and carbs. In the beginning technically there could be a small increase yes...but the amount if actually measured would be insignificant really...I wouldnt say its impossible but its not as if you are gaining lbs of muscle either.
P


Thanks P this is what i was wanting to hear, it is possible to gain abit.. i agree you wont gain pounds of new muscle, but it is possible to gain some! Thanks P:troll

[Praetorian]

so what on earth causes the BW to remain static, strength to go up, BF to decrease? To me, it is logical that it is a LBM increase

Without knowing your actual diet etc I cant make an educated guess. There are many reasons why BW can increase and balance lost weight just from aas alone, increase water within the cell, sodium retention, increased blood volume, increased glycogen retention...etc It is very difficult to say unless i put you on a diet and you run it consistently doing the same cycle. Just because you lowered calories doesnt mean you are in a calorie deficit nor does it mean that the body wont adapt to those calories if you are in a deficit and stop dropping weight...it happens all the time.
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[Praetorian]

Thanks P this is what i was wanting to hear, it is possible to gain abit.. i agree you wont gain pounds of new muscle, but it is possible to gain some! Thanks P:troll

Pleasure.
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[Memo]

my first month of EQ/test my BF decreased drastically. I did not change my calories nor my training. Before my cycle, I was gaining fat. I think AAS are a big part of the equation.