20 Rep Squats

[JacktheThriller]

So fella my strength cycle ends at the end of december and im switching to high reps for a few months.

what do u guys suggest for starting weight in terms of a percentage of max?

[Talo]

Hard to say. I would start around 50-60% of 1RM. Then make small jumps every week or two.

I think starting at the high end might feel easy still but may hinder your results quicker than if you started at the low end -

Think long term and what your goals are.

[Redz]

I dont know how you guys figure out your 1RM, I squat 470 in sets of 10 I dont really think I want to venture into single rep maxes for squats. I like to do sets of 20 reps at 225 but have done them as high as 345.

[JacktheThriller]

thanks talo u mimic my thoughts on this, but i just wanted to double check

[agingtechie]

I dont know how you guys figure out your 1RM, I squat 470 in sets of 10 I dont really think I want to venture into single rep maxes for squats. I like to do sets of 20 reps at 225 but have done them as high as 345.


Keeping in mind that I am just a beginner;I used these web based calculators...

muscletech.com/resources/tools/calculators/rep.shtml

exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

timinvermont.com/fitness/orm.htm

[gregdoucette]

Every single one of those overestimates my max. I made my own chart based on years of lifting and comparing my max to the amount of reps I can get.

Take the weight you lift and dived by the coefficient to get you 1 rep max.

5reps=.881
6=.862
7=.845
8=.829
9=.814
10=.8
11=.787
12=.775
15=.744
20=.694
25=.644
30=.594

[JacktheThriller]

just from estimates i believe that to be fairly accurate greg good, im starting with a fairly easy 20 and adding 5pds every squat day

[tiramisu]

If you look at the old squats and milk program. Which I do but am much too much of a pussy to follow (I have a well thumbed copy of strossen's super squats on my shelf). The 20 rep squat is done with a 10 rep squat weight followed by much breathing and a few more and a couple more and one more and oh lord god allah pray for our sins.... till you hit 20.

It's not intended to be a program that you stay on but an all out yes you will overtrain 6 weeks of plenty of food, sleep and squat till you puke.

leehayward.com/squats.htm

.... If you can't eat like a starving lion and drink milk then you almost certainly won't survive a program like this. It requires all the calories you can throw at it and youth would really help.

[JacktheThriller]

i think that is the program i am going to do. starting in january. how many weeks or days should i wait coming off my current strength cycle?

[faller]

If you look at the old squats and milk program. Which I do but am much too much of a pussy to follow (I have a well thumbed copy of strossen's super squats on my shelf). The 20 rep squat is done with a 10 rep squat weight followed by much breathing and a few more and a couple more and one more and oh lord god allah pray for our sins.... till you hit 20.

It's not intended to be a program that you stay on but an all out yes you will overtrain 6 weeks of plenty of food, sleep and squat till you puke.

leehayward.com/squats.htm

.... If you can't eat like a starving lion and drink milk then you almost certainly won't survive a program like this. It requires all the calories you can throw at it and youth would really help.

Great post t!!

[steve_d]

Every single one of those overestimates my max. I made my own chart based on years of lifting and comparing my max to the amount of reps I can get.

Take the weight you lift and dived by the coefficient to get you 1 rep max.

5reps=.881
6=.862
7=.845
8=.829
9=.814
10=.8
11=.787
12=.775
15=.744
20=.694
25=.644
30=.594

Hey, I took your points and it follows almost perfectly a third degree polynomial. I'd trust Greg's coefficients to be better than any other formula you'd find on the net. And if it doesn't work for you, it just means you weren't trying hard enough on the max, or the repped lift!

[YYZgeddylee]

I like the high rep squats thrown in.
The quads have a lot of slow-twitch fibers.


I do them 2 different ways.

20-rep Breathing Squats (One Set)
You take 3 deep breaths in between each rep.
You're basically doing 20 -- single rep -- sets
with 10 seconds between each rep. The 3 deep breaths (10 sec),
allows you to recruit a higher threshold of motor units than if
you did the 20 reps continuously. With the right load,
this will whip you.

Second way, I pick a weight that I feel confident
that I can get 20 reps with. Full range of motion,
good form. Lift til really close to failure without
endangering my safety. If its 20 reps good, if its
30 reps thats fine too. I'm really interested in
time under tension, make them muscles work for
2 minutes solid.

[gregdoucette]

20 reps squats with 10 seconds rest and 3 deep breaths between reps boy are you guys looking for some serious torture. If u do deep squats to failure for a set of 10-12 reops ur not going to wants to do another set for at least 5 minutes. Squats are hard enough as is as long as ur goign to failure Id skip the 20 rep sets. Its not like bench press where u can do 20 reps in 30 seconds. After all its the time under tension of the muscle not the reps that determines muscle growth. 20 reps with a break between each rep is simply not productive squating. Just do a set of 10 to 12 reps to failure and then decide if u an even handle another set. I normally need to switch to leg press or extensions after a high rep set of deep squats. so much torture and sore for days after.

[gregdoucette]

3rd degree polinomial eh thats a bit beyond what I know but I do know that the relationship is not linear.

[JacktheThriller]

greg benchpress 20 reps in 30 seconds lol im confused i know your exaggerating the time but i was taught that high rep work is supposed to be done with the same cadence as your regular sets?

[steve_d]

I don't think its an exaggeration...If I bench a weight I can do for 20 reps, the first 10 are done in probably 10 seconds (1 per second)...squats are a few seconds per rep.

[JacktheThriller]

that is way to ****in fast did u miss the rest of my post address the cadence issue, otherwise ur 30 seconds for 20 is the same as my 30 secs for 8. Honestly its my opinion if ur repping out 10 in 10seconds and the other 10 in 20 seconds u are training wrong. Way to fast and out of control. USING BASIC PHYSICS v=d/t in m/s d=1.2(my chest to thumbx2 for up and down) x 10 d= 12 tgiven=10

v=1.2 m/s this is quite insane you have to go up and down in less than a second either you are bouncing the weight off your chest or you are using momentum to get the weight moving which isnt weightlifting having an outside force do the actual work for you, your muscles should do the work

[Talo]

I just did 225x20 and it was tough. My 1RM is over 500 ,soi figure I really need to work on my endurance ( muscle and cardiovascular ).

[Talo]

It's good to switch things up every once in awhile 20 reps in 30 seconds ( or whatever ) is fine because I don't think he's doing that all the time. Just like doing nice slow, rest pause method. It's different and it's ok.

[O-Train]

I just did 225x20 and it was tough. My 1RM is over 500 ,soi figure I really need to work on my endurance ( muscle and cardiovascular ).

I am completely opposite. I could rep out 225 for 20 no problem. Once I get past that magic number in the 300's it starts getting really hard.

It's crazy how much your body adapts to how you train.

[Talo]

Agree^^

[YYZgeddylee]

20 reps with a break between each rep is simply not productive squating.


Seems to be productive for Poliquin and his athletes.

[gregdoucette]

I am not trying to offend but I dont believe that anyone who can do a legit 500 lbs bench can't easily do 225 for 20. Heck anyone who benched 500 in a bench press shirt should be able to press 225 for 20.
As far as rep speed I am not exagerating. here is footage of me benched 32 reps in 43 seconds. I believe in recruiting more fibers by lifting explosively. lifting 100 lbs in 1 second recruits more muscle fibers then lifting 100 lbs in 2 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udf6nFxkWBg

[Adonis13]

that's really impressive Greg. i beleive in explosive recruitment as well, reps should be controlled and fast, as you just demonstrated. limb length, and distance the barbell moves is the only real variable for other guys.

[JacktheThriller]

I am not trying to offend but I dont believe that anyone who can do a legit 500 lbs bench can't easily do 225 for 20. Heck anyone who benched 500 in a bench press shirt should be able to press 225 for 20.
As far as rep speed I am not exagerating. here is footage of me benched 32 reps in 43 seconds. I believe in recruiting more fibers by lifting explosively. lifting 100 lbs in 1 second recruits more muscle fibers then lifting 100 lbs in 2 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udf6nFxkWBg

I lift exposively but with a much slower lowering of the bar. I guess this is a personal choice, to do what works for yourself. I've tried faster cadences and i simply dont get the amount of muscular pain out of fast reps, as i do with slower cadences in the eccentric.

[natenator]

I lift exposively but with a much slower lowering of the bar. I guess this is a personal choice, to do what works for yourself. I've tried faster cadences and i simply dont get the amount of muscular pain out of fast reps, as i do with slower cadences in the eccentric.
since when does muscle soreness = muscle growth?

[JacktheThriller]

hey nate enjoy ur homework

Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), also sometimes called muscle fever, is the pain or discomfort often felt 24 to 72 hours after exercising and subsides generally within 2 to 3 days. It is commonly thought to be caused by increased lactate concentrations; however, this is a misconception as it has been shown elevated levels of rarely persist after an hour of rest.
Although the precise cause is still unknown, the type of muscle contraction seems to be a key factor in the development of DOMS. A theory recently developed states that DOMS is caused by the breakdown of muscular fibres. This is particularly apparent in strength/resistance programs. The breakdown occurs due to stress, and allows the muscles to grow stronger and larger, as shown through hypertrophy. Exercises that involve many eccentric contractions, such as downhill running, will result in the most severe DOMS. This has been shown to be the result of more muscle cell damage than is seen with typical concentric contractions, in which a muscle successfully shortens during contraction against a load.
Some research claims that DOMS is not caused by the pain from damaged muscle cells, but from the reinforcement process. The muscle responds to training by reinforcing itself up to and above its previous strength by increasing the size of muscle fibers (muscle hypertrophy). This reinforcement process causes the cells to swell in their compartment and put pressure on nerves and arteries, producing pain.
After muscle damage, whether it be from a severe accident or something like physical activity, the body's first response is inflammation. Within the first 24 hours, levels of neutrophils (white blood cells which respond to injury) increase and migrate to the site of injury or exercise trauma

[natenator]

you got this from Wikipedia? Seriously?

How about some Pubmed journals at least?

[JacktheThriller]

fine fine ill get u some but i mean wikipedia is just as valid as britannica or something of that nature its been proven, + mistakes and errors can be fixed in a matter of minutes vs waiting for a new edition in other encyclopedia

Here is a journal that says in its summary that eccentric is surperior to concentric and isometric movemovents. Eccentric creates the most muscle soreness, but their is no evidence to suggest that this muscle soreness is the direct cause of the greater hypertrophy in the muscle.
shobix.co.jp/ijshs/tempfiles/journal/1-1/01010001.pdf

so does muscle soreness = muscle growth, maybe yes maybe no , theorized both ways

[JacktheThriller]

never had to defend my training like this and i kinda like it

[steve_d]

I don't think muscle grows iff (if and only if) there is muscle soreness. The only time I get really sore is when I haven't trained in a while. Sure there is a little bit of soreness, but nothing like the can't sit on the toilet for a week after squatting that I would get after taking say 3 weeks off.

I went bowling the other day, played for 30 minutes, and was really sore. But I am pretty sure I got better results in terms of muscle growth from my squat workouts that didn't leave me nearly as sore.

Not to mention, if I had to run 2 km today, I'd be sore as hell tomorrow - again, I don't see running as a big muscle builder.

[steve_d]

that is way to ****in fast did u miss the rest of my post address the cadence issue, otherwise ur 30 seconds for 20 is the same as my 30 secs for 8. Honestly its my opinion if ur repping out 10 in 10seconds and the other 10 in 20 seconds u are training wrong. Way to fast and out of control. USING BASIC PHYSICS v=d/t in m/s d=1.2(my chest to thumbx2 for up and down) x 10 d= 12 tgiven=10

v=1.2 m/s this is quite insane you have to go up and down in less than a second either you are bouncing the weight off your chest or you are using momentum to get the weight moving which isnt weightlifting having an outside force do the actual work for you, your muscles should do the work

There is no way the way I train is "wrong". It's just different then the way you train. Try doing say 70% of your bodyweight for 60 reps as fast as humanly possible and tell me you feel the same as doing 50% of your bodyweight for 20 reps going 1/3 as fast.

And what is with the "basic physics formula"....what does that even have to do with anything? You've defined velocity, and concluded 1.2 m/s is insane. Looking at greg's video, I don't see anything insane about the speed. No momentem, no bouncing. Just strength and power.

[steve_d]

1 more thing. Anyone benching 500 can do 2 plates for 20...C'mon!

[natenator]

never had to defend my training like this and i kinda like it
nothing to defend,. Do what you want to do but don't delude yourself into believing soreness = growth because it does not.

I can be sore for days by doing low weight, 30 rep curls. Do you think that had any effect on hypertrophy? Before you go "look it up" I'll tell you: No.

[Adonis13]

ive been off cycle now for about 3 months, and im still doing the same work with the same weight for the most part. the only big difference i notice is how sore i am all the time, especially after quad day and then after ham day. im not growing right now, just maintaining. i dont beleive DOMS is a trigger for muscle growth, just think it tells you that u have done alot of damage to muscle fibers. also imo i dont think it really matter how people lift, as long as you are feeling the weight. some guys throw big weight and grow and some guys throw crazy reps around and grow. i think its about mentallity and time under tension with consistancy. u look at guys like ronnie who look like they throw huge weight around but i gaurente you that they are felling that weight they just look like they don't cause their rep range is drastically different than most of us. then u look at guys like dorian who was all about the rep and feeling each one tremendously but only did 1 major working all out set. the point is there is many ways to grow none are wrong, as long as ur mind muscle connection is there and you are consistant.

[Adonis13]

i also beleive that anyone who can honestly bench 500 lbs should be able to get 20 reps with 2 plates, but i know guys who can do 2 plates for 20- 30reps but cannot for the life of em do 400lbs let alone 500. when anyone asks how much we bench (bodybuilders) i usually retort with somthing like "i dont know, im a body BUILDER, not a power lifter.

[steve_d]

I've done 2 plates for 26 reps, and at the time could bench 360 for 1 rep. Bit weaker now, and 2 plates for 20 is about what I could do. No way could I bench over 325. I don't consider myself better at reps.

I think he was just exaggerating.

[O-Train]

I'm fairly sure the initial post referencing 225x20 was in regards to squats, not bench press.

[steve_d]

^ hey, you're right...he was talking squats. even still, 2 plates for 20 reps on a squat isn't hard - if you can get 500 that is, or 400 for that matter.

[ta-kid]

ive been off cycle now for about 3 months, and im still doing the same work with the same weight for the most part. the only big difference i notice is how sore i am all the time, especially after quad day and then after ham day. im not growing right now, just maintaining. i dont beleive DOMS is a trigger for muscle growth, just think it tells you that u have done alot of damage to muscle fibers. also imo i dont think it really matter how people lift, as long as you are feeling the weight. some guys throw big weight and grow and some guys throw crazy reps around and grow. i think its about mentallity and time under tension with consistancy. u look at guys like ronnie who look like they throw huge weight around but i gaurente you that they are felling that weight they just look like they don't cause their rep range is drastically different than most of us. then u look at guys like dorian who was all about the rep and feeling each one tremendously but only did 1 major working all out set. the point is there is many ways to grow none are wrong, as long as ur mind muscle connection is there and you are consistant.
Well said.There is a lot of advice ,right or wrong in this thread,but what works for you may not work for someone else.I have found that you are never to old to learn.

[JacktheThriller]

insightfull lol

[ta-kid]

:popc