reverse pyramind training?

[beretta96]

I've been reading here about this and tried it this week and I noticed more muscle aches the next day. How many people here use this technique?

When you use your heaviest lifts first, how many reps do you do typically? I was doing for example military press at 205# for 8, then 185# for 10, then 160# for 12. Are these reps too high, should I go 6,8,10 instead?

Would you have an example of your schedule to give me an idea of what to do?

[Bowlcut]

Normally when PL'ers do reverse pyramid they do a few sets at a 1RM or a 3RM then drop to an 8RM for a set. This is common for close grip bench, or CG incline work.
Depends on what type of training phase you are in. If you just came of an accumulation phase of higher reps and short rest I would suggest you do 1RM in any bench, squat, or DL. However listen to your body and if you are not feeling a 1rm do a 3rm.

For military press usually do a 3rm or a 5rm if you are not feeling it.

[LondonMuscle]

my problem with you technique is that you end up building up too much fatigue too early in the workout... imagine if on ur first exercise you do a heavier loading set of 8, then drop that down say 20% do a set of 10, drop that weight down 20% and then do 12 more, how are u going to perform the rest of your workout??

i believe heavy sets should be heavy sets, then move on... id organize your exercises in terms of how much CNS fatigue they cause... so exercise 1 should be heavy compound loading, 5-6 rep range or even lower in some cases... when u reach ur max u move on to the next set... perhaps this set is a DB movement with the loading and reps a bit higher... then your next set might be more of an isolation exercise, in say the 10 rep range etc.

if u try to do it all in the first exercise u may as well only do 1 exercise because the loading for the following ones will be extremely poor

[Praetorian]

I've been reading here about this and tried it this week and I noticed more muscle aches the next day. How many people here use this technique?

When you use your heaviest lifts first, how many reps do you do typically? I was doing for example military press at 205# for 8, then 185# for 10, then 160# for 12. Are these reps too high, should I go 6,8,10 instead?

Would you have an example of your schedule to give me an idea of what to do?

You've got the right idea...5-6 reps would be ideal for your first set...here is a post from my Q&A.
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The most important set...or should I say the set that imparts the most gains is the heaviest and the first. You have the most energy, focus, drive and fuel for this set...thus you want to make it count. What is the point of pyramiding up in weight while at the same time tiring yourself out...once you reach the heaviest set your zonked. Warm up sets are just that...warmups....stimulate blood flow, prepare the body for weight, prepare the mind for weight...do not exhaust yourself but warm up enough to avoid injuries.

Here is my typical bench routine as an example...

warm up...cable crossovers light weight 2 sets 20
warm up straight bar lat pulldowns....2 sets 15
warm up triceps pushdowns light weight 2 sets 15
warm up bench press 135lbs for 12
warm up bench press 225lbs for 10
warm up bench press 315lbs for 8
warm up bench press 405lbs for 6
warm up bench press 455lbs for 3
1st set bench press 495lbs for 6-10 (basically as many as possible to failure)
2nd set bench press 445lbs for as many as possible
3rd set bench press 405lbs for as many as possible

If i am feeling stronger that day...ill do one more warm up after 455 with 495 for a single then go for 545lbs for my first set and drop from there.

[Praetorian]

my problem with you technique is that you end up building up too much fatigue too early in the workout... imagine if on ur first exercise you do a heavier loading set of 8, then drop that down say 20% do a set of 10, drop that weight down 20% and then do 12 more, how are u going to perform the rest of your workout??

i believe heavy sets should be heavy sets, then move on... id organize your exercises in terms of how much CNS fatigue they cause... so exercise 1 should be heavy compound loading, 5-6 rep range or even lower in some cases... when u reach ur max u move on to the next set... perhaps this set is a DB movement with the loading and reps a bit higher... then your next set might be more of an isolation exercise, in say the 10 rep range etc.

if u try to do it all in the first exercise u may as well only do 1 exercise because the loading for the following ones will be extremely poor

If you are too fatigued to continue your workout...then your workout is too long. Your workout should be high intensity with adequate volume...if you are worrying about being too tired later you are drastically slowing your gains.
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[LondonMuscle]

i dont agree

u could do could do a triple drop set, consisting of 50 reps to start a workout and totally drain yourself... say u do 30 reps, to absolute failure, drop the weight, perform 15 more reps to failure, drop the weight and do 5 more to failure... u likely will not be able to perform anymore beyond this point, yet u would argue this workout is too long since fatigue is too great??

id argue that the point is not to go to failure on every set... that volume is just as important as a stimulus for growth as is intensity of effort... the idea should be to build volume up with a load sufficient to cause an anabolic response but not totally drain the body of recovery resources or build up too much lactic acid too early in the workout (ie the first exercise)

this can be accomplished by performing heavy loading earlier on in the workout and then following up with higher rep work as the workout progresses... in this respect i do worry about exhausting too early... you cannot perform heavy loading, certainly an integral part in maximal hypetropy training, as is volume, if u have built up lactic acid which will interfere with muscular contractions.... i know of no sport to date where the goal is to exhaust ones self as quickly as possible


if u fatigue too early i believe that is a function of poor workout design, not necessarily excessive workout duration

[Praetorian]

i dont agree

u could do could do a triple drop set, consisting of 50 reps to start a workout and totally drain yourself... say u do 30 reps, to absolute failure, drop the weight, perform 15 more reps to failure, drop the weight and do 5 more to failure... u likely will not be able to perform anymore beyond this point, yet u would argue this workout is too long since fatigue is too great??

id argue that the point is not to go to failure on every set... that volume is just as important as a stimulus for growth as is intensity of effort... the idea should be to build volume up with a load sufficient to cause an anabolic response but not totally drain the body of recovery resources or build up too much lactic acid too early in the workout (ie the first exercise)

this can be accomplished by performing heavy loading earlier on in the workout and then following up with higher rep work as the workout progresses... in this respect i do worry about exhausting too early... you cannot perform heavy loading, certainly an integral part in maximal hypetropy training, as is volume, if u have built up lactic acid which will interfere with muscular contractions.... i know of no sport to date where the goal is to exhaust ones self as quickly as possible


if u fatigue too early i believe that is a function of poor workout design, not necessarily excessive workout duration

You are missing the point entirely....a triple drop set of 50, then 30 etc is NOT HIT training at all that is LOW intensity training! High intensity training involves a specific rep scheme designed to improve strength and build muscle. You are not building muscle doing 50 reps, all you are doing is building endurance...this equates to low intensity measured during a specific time.
If you are interested in hypertrophy and strength then you need to remain within this rep range. The goal is to maximize intensity within a specific rep range to failure on your first working set.That is HIT. You have plenty of energy stores to continue a workout after that. If lactic acid is a problem you are in the wrong rep range. There is simply no way to drain the body of all energy resources in one set to failure in this rep range...that is absurd. Again if you are fatigued too early in your workout your are either completely out of shape or doing too much volume. Not sure where you got the idea of exhausting yourself as quickly as possible...that is not the idea at all....its about getting to the highest intensity point as soon as possible and trying to maintain that with sufficient volume without over taxing the CNS. And...there are many sports that require this...namely sprinting...trying to achieve the highest point in acceleration as soon as possible and limiting deceleration as much as possible within a specified time. Another would be powerlifting...maximum intensity in an explosive fashion in a minimum time...that equation by the way equals power...P=E/T. A sprinter doesnt win the race by saving himself at the start...nor does a powerlifter win a power meet by going easy on his first lift to save himself for the next two...he needs to excel at all three...if he is fatigued after one lift his GPP is lacking.
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[LondonMuscle]

i think u had missed my point with the 50 rep set... i was not advocating this type of training, i was merely showing that u could build up fatigue very quickly in a routine, even if the workout is not long in duration


however u have changed your position from the first post to the second... in ur first post u said:

"If you are too fatigued to continue your workout...then your workout is too long"


now in your second post u are saying:

"if you are fatigued too early in your workout your are either completely out of shape or doing too much volume"


these are very different stances... my response to your first statement was that "if u fatigue too early i believe that is a function of poor workout design, not necessarily excessive workout duration"

your second statement is now in line with my original argument, so i dont believe there is a disagreement anymore! we now both agree that it is poor program design that is the issue, not necessarily workout duration, as you had originally stated


as for lactic acid, anyone that has experience a burning session during a workout is experiencing lactic acid accumulation... i dont believe that everyone that feels this is in the wrong rep range... ive certainly felt in in the 6-8 range myself

for sprinters and powerlifters... certainly agree that in competition the point is to reach max acceleration as quickly as possible, but i was talking about their training, not their competitions... in training they build up intensity to the point where they reach max power output over successive trials, but thats just kinda splitting hair now, we are saying the same thing


i would also like to say that your training is in line with the point i was trying to make... for example u do 8 warmup sets for you bench... u reserve energy in each set so that when u reach a near max u can perform optimally... similarly when u do your max set and following two sets, u drop the weight to 405, but u do not continue to go lower, like to say 315 or 225 for the reason i was trying to point out that there must be a reservation of some energy during the earlier sets so that successive sets can be performed effectively... if u kept dropping the weight and going to failure until u reach 225, u would not perform well for the rest of the workout... thats the point i was trying to get across

[Praetorian]

i think u had missed my point with the 50 rep set... i was not advocating this type of training, i was merely showing that u could build up fatigue very quickly in a routine, even if the workout is not long in duration OF COURSE BUT THIS IS NOT HIGH INTENSITY AS I SAID...IT IS LOW INTENSITY SO IT IS IRRELEVANT


however u have changed your position from the first post to the second... in ur first post u said:

"If you are too fatigued to continue your workout...then your workout is too long" YES TOO LONG EQUATES TO TOO MUCH VOLUME...SAME THING-STAY IN CONTEXT WITH HIT...REMEMBER THE REP SCHEME


now in your second post u are saying:

"if you are fatigued too early in your workout your are either completely out of shape or doing too much volume" AGAIN ...OUT OF SHAPE OR TOO MUCH VOLUME SAME AS ABOVE-REMEMBER WE ARE TALKING HIGH INTENSITY HERE...IF YOU CANT PERFORM 2-3 HIT SETS YOU ARE WAY OUT OF SHAPE...REMEMBER THE REP RANGE...SO IF YOU ARE PERFORMING THIS REP RANGE THAN VOLUME IS TOO HIGH...IE YOU ARE DOING TOO MANY SETS


these are very different stances... my response to your first statement was that "if u fatigue too early i believe that is a function of poor workout design, not necessarily excessive workout duration" IF YOU ARE TRAINING HIGH INTENSITY THEN YOUR SETS WILL BE MINIMAL...POOR WORKOUT DESIGN EQUATES TO TOO MUCH VOLUME

your second statement is now in line with my original argument, so i dont believe there is a disagreement anymore! we now both agree that it is poor program design that is the issue, not necessarily workout duration, as you had originally stated WORKOUT DURATION IS VOLUME IT IS THE SAME THING...YOU HAVE TWO VARIABLES TO DEAL WITH INTENSITY AND VOLUME...ONE WILL ALWAYS BE DOMINANT OR YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS..IE POOR WORKOUT DESIGN AS YOU CALL IT


as for lactic acid, anyone that has experience a burning session during a workout is experiencing lactic acid accumulation... i dont believe that everyone that feels this is in the wrong rep range... ive certainly felt in in the 6-8 range myself I SAID IF YOU ARE FAILING BECAUSE OF LACTIC ACID BUILD UP YOU ARE IN THE WRONG REP RANGE ...NOT THAT U DONT FEEL IT

for sprinters and powerlifters... certainly agree that in competition the point is to reach max acceleration as quickly as possible, but i was talking about their training, not their competitions... in training they build up intensity to the point where they reach max power output over successive trials, but thats just kinda splitting hair now, we are saying the same thing TRAINING MIMICKS COMPETITION...YOU JUST CYCLE INTENSITY TO AVOID CNS FATIGUE AND INJURIES AND TO PEAK FOR COMPETITION...YOU GET FAST BY GOING FAST IE MAXIMUM SPEED....YOU GET STRONG BY LIFTING HEAVY...IE MAXIMUM WEIGHT!


i would also like to say that your training is in line with the point i was trying to make... for example u do 8 warmup sets for you bench... u reserve energy in each set so that when u reach a near max u can perform optimally... similarly when u do your max set and following two sets, u drop the weight to 405, but u do not continue to go lower, like to say 315 or 225 for the reason i was trying to point out that there must be a reservation of some energy during the earlier sets so that successive sets can be performed effectively... if u kept dropping the weight and going to failure until u reach 225, u would not perform well for the rest of the workout... thats the point i was trying to get across THAT IS MY POINT ABOUT VOLUME..."Your workout should be high intensity with adequate volume." FROM MY POST

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[Memo]

I think you guys are arguing about the same thing.

[LondonMuscle]

ya i think we are saying the same thing in different ways, although the caps in his posts makes me think hes a bit upset about it! :)

[Praetorian]

ya i think we are saying the same thing in different ways, although the caps in his posts makes me think hes a bit upset about it! :)

LOL no I posted in caps to distinguish my comments from yours...i do that alot on my Q&A
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[LondonMuscle]

oh ok, i got it, i hadnt checked out your Q&A yet but I will as you seem to be the "go to" guy on this forum and you've obviously accomplished a lot

[beretta96]

I understand now, you both seem to be talking along parallel paths and are both making good points. I found now that going from 8, 10, 12 reps was gassing me out for the rest of my workout. I found I had a hard time with my last exercise, out of breath for longer durations and trembling muscles.

The next session, I did as mentioned and "listened" to my body, now doing sets of 6, 8, 10 with a slightly longer rest in between. Now I find I am still exhausted after but now all my work has been done.

How long should muscle soreness last after a workout like this? Maybe it's a new shock to my body but on Friday evening, I had my arm workout along with core work. My arms are still a little tender today. Is this OK to be sore for almost 3 days later? Will my body simply adjust to the new routine or am I doing too much still?

thanks for the help,

[Memo]

I would wait 3 weeks to see if its too much. Body will adapt to workload overtime.

[Praetorian]

I understand now, you both seem to be talking along parallel paths and are both making good points. I found now that going from 8, 10, 12 reps was gassing me out for the rest of my workout. I found I had a hard time with my last exercise, out of breath for longer durations and trembling muscles.

The next session, I did as mentioned and "listened" to my body, now doing sets of 6, 8, 10 with a slightly longer rest in between. Now I find I am still exhausted after but now all my work has been done.

How long should muscle soreness last after a workout like this? Maybe it's a new shock to my body but on Friday evening, I had my arm workout along with core work. My arms are still a little tender today. Is this OK to be sore for almost 3 days later? Will my body simply adjust to the new routine or am I doing too much still?

thanks for the help,

2-3 sets of high intensity is very sufficient. Rest periods between sets should be as long as you need to get your heart rate back to normal...again the better your GPP the faster this will happen. The soreness you feel is from the increased intensity level...you will adapt and it wont be as bad the next time...youll be fine. Every few weeks (4-5) try for a personal best in the 3 rep range...this will gauge your strength as well as help improve it.
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