which do you prefer for pct?

[MMASTAR]

which do you prefer for pct and why. Nolva or Comid or other. Give a reason if you got one.

[gustavo77]

Clomid because it is more effective for me than nolva. Clomid works well at a low dose, 25-50mg/day, as well. Most of the bad experiences with clomid are due to the high doses used IMO.

[z83]

hcg before pct, clomid + aromasin

[Praetorian]

Clomid because what you are really looking to do with Clomid is awaken the pituitary. Clomid should be administered orally at a dose of 50mg two times per day for 2 weeks. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen that, in men, can perform two functions: a) Clomid antagonizes estrogen receptors (somewhat
inhibiting the estrogenic side effects of aromatizing anabolic steroids).b) Clomid mimics the effects of the hypothalamic hormone Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GRH). In humans, GRH stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). This final role of Clomid, then, is to help awaken the pituitary gland that has been suppressed from the heavy anabolic steroid cycle that was just recently ceased.
P

[bigboy999]

i do a 10week taper that i read on absolute bb forum. its a sticky by prisoner22. use nolva throughout taper and for a few weeks after. works like a charm, no crash or nothin. i used to always do clomid hcg arimidex and end up crashing when im done.

[Ritch]

i do a 10week taper that i read on absolute bb forum. its a sticky by prisoner22. use nolva throughout taper and for a few weeks after. works like a charm, no crash or nothin. i used to always do clomid hcg arimidex and end up crashing when im done.

I`m doing the statis part right now and just added some nolva as my nips were tingling from stoping the arimidex. Next week is my last 100mg shot, then it`s the taper with aromasin and nolva. Can`t wait for this shit to be over to be honest.

[C-money]

i do a 10week taper that i read on absolute bb forum. its a sticky by prisoner22. use nolva throughout taper and for a few weeks after. works like a charm, no crash or nothin. i used to always do clomid hcg arimidex and end up crashing when im done.

Thats what ive been doing... works like a charm for me anyways.. im a nolva guy

[Blitz-Test]

Nolvadex

Well both of the SERMs work in the same way, they work by altering the binding capacity of the estrogen receptor leading to the decrease of estrogen effects on the tissues where these receptors reside.

Many people believe that Nolvadex is better at altering these receptors but this is not true at all, Nolvadex and Clomid both alter the same receptors in the exact same way. Likewise many people believe that Clomid is the only one that restores testosterone productions or atleast does a better job.

However this is not true at all, actually the opposite is true Nolvadex is better at restoring testosterone production. Both of these compounds oppose the negative feedback from estrogen on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH, which stimulates LH output in the pituitary, as a result LH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, however Clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH, while Nolvadex actually increases sensitivity and thus increases the amount of LH significantly more than clomid. Clomid also can increase SHBG which would lead to less free testosterone in the body.

[BAM]

I think Clomid is a safer option and It seems to work well for me.

I have read studies re: Nolva that suggest that it can cause cancer to recur and be more aggressive that it was previously.

The time I did use Nolva, it murdered my libido/function and turned me into an emotional headcase. At least I think it did.
(no.. not like the headcase I am perceived to be now.)

I speak of Human Grade only as never use UG ancillaries.

[Praetorian]

Nolvadex

Well both of the SERMs work in the same way, they work by altering the binding capacity of the estrogen receptor leading to the decrease of estrogen effects on the tissues where these receptors reside.

Many people believe that Nolvadex is better at altering these receptors but this is not true at all, Nolvadex and Clomid both alter the same receptors in the exact same way. Likewise many people believe that Clomid is the only one that restores testosterone productions or atleast does a better job.

However this is not true at all, actually the opposite is true Nolvadex is better at restoring testosterone production. Both of these compounds oppose the negative feedback from estrogen on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH, which stimulates LH output in the pituitary, as a result LH stimulates the testes to produce more testosterone, however Clomid desensitizes the pituitary to GnRH, while Nolvadex actually increases sensitivity and thus increases the amount of LH significantly more than clomid. Clomid also can increase SHBG which would lead to less free testosterone in the body.

Actually both SERMS work similarily but not identical. Nolvadex gained notoriety from the author of Anabolics 2006 when he suggested it was superior to Clomid which it is not. He also goes on to state that it desensitizes the GNRH receptors of the pituitary and nolvadex doesnt but he doesnt explain this in detail. This desensitization occurs over a longer duration of use and not what would normally be used for PCT ie 2-3 weeks. Also Clomid is the defacto standard used by Endocrinologists to determine secondary hypogonadism its called the clomid stimulation test. 100mg given ED to patients has shown to increase LH by 100% and FSH by 50% in 5-7 days...thus the desensitization argument is irrelevant. Clomid is far superior at reawakening the pituitary (and more quickly) then nolvadex is.
P

[bongd]

Actually both SERMS work similarily but not identical. Nolvadex gained notoriety from the author of Anabolics 2006 when he suggested it was superior to Clomid which it is not. He also goes on to state that it desensitizes the GNRH receptors of the pituitary and nolvadex doesnt but he doesnt explain this in detail. This desensitization occurs over a longer duration of use and not what would normally be used for PCT ie 2-3 weeks. Also Clomid is the defacto standard used by Endocrinologists to determine secondary hypogonadism its called the clomid stimulation test. 100mg given ED to patients has shown to increase LH by 100% and FSH by 50% in 5-7 days...thus the desensitization argument is irrelevant. Clomid is far superior at reawakening the pituitary (and more quickly) then nolvadex is.
P

To sum it up, the drugs do the same thing but in different ways. Most people will usually agree that Clomid will do the trick, but complain about the side affects. In my personal experience, this was true but I was taking the larger recommended doses by all the "bro's" on the internet. While Tamoxifen (nolva) is usually more tolerable, I care about the end result and will go with Clomid next time around.

As far as the Clomid sides.. lets just say one day I was walking to my mom's to take the dog for a walk, looked up at some leaves falling from a tree and burst into tears. Oh my. No forewarning, just uncontrollable crying. I also cried when I was on the computer too lol.. first time I had cried in years.

It was so ****ing strange! I laughed after and felt like a chick must feel when she's getting a visit from Aunt Flow!! :eek:

[C-money]

Pussy! ^^:D

[bongd]

Pussy! ^^:D

Only on Clomid, brah. Only on Clomid. :D

:puff

[Blitz-Test]

Actually both SERMS work similarily but not identical. Nolvadex gained notoriety from the author of Anabolics 2006 when he suggested it was superior to Clomid which it is not. He also goes on to state that it desensitizes the GNRH receptors of the pituitary and nolvadex doesnt but he doesnt explain this in detail. This desensitization occurs over a longer duration of use and not what would normally be used for PCT ie 2-3 weeks. Also Clomid is the defacto standard used by Endocrinologists to determine secondary hypogonadism its called the clomid stimulation test. 100mg given ED to patients has shown to increase LH by 100% and FSH by 50% in 5-7 days...thus the desensitization argument is irrelevant. Clomid is far superior at reawakening the pituitary (and more quickly) then nolvadex is.
P

Ive never looked at Anabolics 2006..


suggested it was superior to Clomid which it is not
How so?


This desensitization occurs over a longer duration of use and not what would normally be used for PCT ie 2-3 weeks

In the studies I have seen, your right it doesnt happen in 2-3 weeks, but it begins within 5 weeks... I dont typically see pcts 2-3 weeks long usually 4 weeks plus... Do you have any studies that show it doesnt begin to desensitize after 4-8 weeks?


Clomid is far superior at reawakening the pituitary (and more quickly) then nolvadex is.

How so? Based on what?



Not trying to argue, just trying to learn everything I have read except for brolore on forums points to nolvadex being better... Just wondering if you have any studies I can look at for clomid being better?

[MMASTAR]

Actually both SERMS work similarily but not identical. Nolvadex gained notoriety from the author of Anabolics 2006 when he suggested it was superior to Clomid which it is not. He also goes on to state that it desensitizes the GNRH receptors of the pituitary and nolvadex doesnt but he doesnt explain this in detail. This desensitization occurs over a longer duration of use and not what would normally be used for PCT ie 2-3 weeks. Also Clomid is the defacto standard used by Endocrinologists to determine secondary hypogonadism its called the clomid stimulation test. 100mg given ED to patients has shown to increase LH by 100% and FSH by 50% in 5-7 days...thus the desensitization argument is irrelevant. Clomid is far superior at reawakening the pituitary (and more quickly) then nolvadex is.
P

so what would you say is a good way to run the clomid for a test cycle only? 1 week at 100mg a day and 2 weeks at 50 mg a day? Thanks P!

[dremen]

Im just going to stay on forever:)

[nitrous]

nolva makes me feel like a girl.. like i want to cry at times...

clomid i felt great and its suppose to be better for PCT.. so for me its clomid and aromasin with hcg

[z83]

no emo problems with either clomid/nolva but nolva = acne
aromasin = VERY low libido :(

[daande]

Clomid made me extremely ****ing depressed and feeling shitty.

[spiderman7]

I remember before Trt doing a combo of Fareston/clomid. I'd say that got me going in no time.

[Praetorian]

Ive never looked at Anabolics 2006..


How so?

Tamoxifen works in a similar fashion to that of clomiphene in that it binds competitively to estrogen receptors throughout the body. It especially binds well to the alpha receptor that can promote breast tissue growth. It, like clomiphene, can increase LH and Testosterone, but not to the same extent.

One could guess that by using a higher amount of tamoxifen, you could achieve the same LH boosting effects as those seen with clomiphene. However, in one study, no difference was found in terms of LH and Testosterone levels when men were given either 5 or 10 mg daily or 20 mg daily (4). If, however, these levels were increased even higher to 40 to 80 mg, the results may have been different. For now though, I’d say clomiphene is the better of the two in terms of elevating LH and Testosterone.
4. Dony JM, et al. "Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in ogliozoospermic men." Androlgia 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78


In the studies I have seen, your right it doesnt happen in 2-3 weeks, but it begins within 5 weeks... I dont typically see pcts 2-3 weeks long usually 4 weeks plus... Do you have any studies that show it doesnt begin to desensitize after 4-8 weeks?

PCT should start with HCG while exogenous testosterone is still present in the bloodstream. Once HCG therapy is completed Clomid can be used at 50mg BID for 2 to 3 weeks maximum. Going over 3 weeks is unnecesary and can lead to other sides effects as well. If you are not recovering from the increased LH/FSH output via clomid in 2-3 weeks the issue is not the amount of LH being stimulated it is a desensitization of the testes to LH....which means the HCG protocol was ineffective and should be run at a higher dosage...OR run currently during the cycle to avoid desensitization.



How so? Based on what?

Based on the greater pituitary stimulating effects of clomid...

The direct effects of clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen, and estradiol (E2) on the gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH)-stimulated release of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) were studied in cultured anterior pituitary cells obtained from adult ovariectomized rats. Treatment of pituitary cells with Clomid or enclomid (10(-8) M) in vitro for 2 days resulted in a marked sensitization of the gonadotroph to GnRH as reflected by a 6.5-fold decrease in the ED50 of GnRH in terms of LH release from 2.2 x 10(-9) M in untreated cells to 3.6 x 10(-10) M. Treatment with E2 or Clomid also increased the sensitivity of the gonadotroph to GnRH in terms of FSH release by 4.3- and 3.3-fold respectively. Tamoxifen, a related antiestrogen, comparable to Clomid in terms of its ability to compete with E2 for pituitary estrogen receptors, was without effect on the GnRH-stimulated LH release at a concentration of 10(-7) M. Furthermore, tamoxifen, unlike Clomid, caused an apparent but not statistically significant inhibition of the sensitizing effect of E2 on the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Our findings suggest that Clomid and its Enclomid isomer, unlike tamoxifen, exert a direct estrogenic rather than an antiestrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cells by enhancing the GnRH-stimulated release of gonadotropin.


Not trying to argue, just trying to learn everything I have read except for brolore on forums points to nolvadex being better... Just wondering if you have any studies I can look at for clomid being better?

P

[ironwill]

Im just going to stay on forever:)

You are on......hmmmmmpf.....crazy...:rofl

[Max 750]

The best pct Ive done to date is:

hgh 2iu's same wk as last shot, then ran for 36wks
clomid 25mg for 30 days 2wks after last shot
nolva 20mg for 50 days " "
aromasin 25mg for 30 days " "
hcg 250iu's 2xwk throughout 24 wk cycle
clen 50mg for 50 days 2 weeks after last shot
yohimbine for 30 days 2 weeks after last shot

Running this Pct was the first time i did not have a post-cycle "crash"

[HardWood]

I use HCG and Nolva...I dont think I could do Clomid cuz I'm already kinda of a sensivitive guy. Plus, I'm doing devorice and I'm away from my two little boys alot of the time. So, clomid is not for me. I love and care for alot of people....for real!

[neutronmtl]

i tried may diffrent way of pct,long time ago before my trt protocol,,,i think clomid is best,although study perefer nolvadex.
in my exprience nothings gives the morning wood and libido better than clomid. i think best pct is hcg 3 weeks at the dose 2500 mg every 3 days combine with clomid 100 mg for 4 more weeks after last shot hcg,,also hcg is better when u inject im than sbq,this is my exprience,,thanks,,

[dremen]

You are on......hmmmmmpf.....crazy...:rofl


On like Donkey Kong.....lol

Give me another year and you will eat your own words about me.:D

[kloan]

The best pct Ive done to date is:

hgh 2iu's same wk as last shot, then ran for 36wks
clomid 25mg for 30 days 2wks after last shot
nolva 20mg for 50 days " "
aromasin 25mg for 30 days " "
hcg 250iu's 2xwk throughout 24 wk cycle
clen 50mg for 50 days 2 weeks after last shot
yohimbine for 30 days 2 weeks after last shot

Running this Pct was the first time i did not have a post-cycle "crash"

interesting