looking for the keto bible

[waderow]

can anyone recommend a good read on keto diet.

I am going to be doing my first run at keto in a couple months and want to read up.

I know the basics of course, but would like more knowledge to make it a more successful run.

Going to be likely 260-270 at end of Jan, and want to cut after that down to 240 in 12 weeks which should put me at or around 8%.

I could do this conventionally, but I am eager to try keto, and perhaps do it faster? Not really sure how I will react to keto, or its capabilities.

During the cut:

Will be running test P at 200mg EOD and am considering tren a at 100mg eod if I can stomach it. Have a pile of Var too....

I will probably do a log too

[faller]

I'm also interested in this... I'll be cutting in about 3 months and would also like to try the keto diet..

[waderow]

I'm also interested in this... I'll be cutting in about 3 months and would also like to try the keto diet..

I found some info at bodybuilding.com.

In Depth Look At Ketogenic Diets And Ketosis.

By: Jonathan Deprospo

What exactly is Ketosis? The metabolic state of ketosis simply means that the quantity of ketone bodies in the blood have reached higher than normal levels. When the body is in a ketogenic state this means that lipid energy metabolism is intact. This means that the body will start breaking down your own body fat to fuel the body's normal, every day functions.

What's So Great About Being In Ketosis?

Establishing this metabolic state of ketosis even for a short period of time has many outstanding benefits.

1. The main benefit being that it increases the body's ability to utilize fats for fuel, which gets very lazy on a high carbohydrate diet. When on high carbohydrate diets the body can usually expect an energy source to keep entering the body. But in the state of ketosis the body has to become efficient at mobilizing fats as energy.

2. Another nifty thing about being in a state of ketosis is that if the body has no further use for ketones they can simply be excreted through urine as a waste product. This means that at times your body will be peeing out body fat! This is a novel theme because you body is very efficient at storing energy substrates for later use.

3. Ketosis has a protein sparing effect, assuming that you are consuming adequate quantities of protein and calories in the first place. Once in ketosis the body actually prefers ketones to glucose. Since the body has copious quanities of fat this means that there is no need to oxidize protein to generate glucose through gluconeogenesis.

4. Another benefit has to do with the low levels of insulin in the body, which causes greater lipolysis and free glycerol release compared to a normal diet when insulin is around 80-120. Insulin has a lipolysis blocking effect, which can inhibit the use of fatty acids as energy. Also when insulin is brought to low levels many beneficial hormones are released in the body such as growth hormone and other powerful growth factors.

5. Another small but very important benefit about the ketogenic diet is that when in the state of ketosis, ketones seem to blunt hunger in many people. I mean honestly, what is not better than being on a low calorie diet and not being hungry all the time like you usually are such as on a high carbohydrate diet. Since on the ketogenic diet you have to consume a lot of fat, which hold 9 calories, you are not getting much food volume. This makes not being hungry a very good thing when on the diet. When you add such thermogenics like the ECA stack and prescription appetite suppressants you won't even think about your next meal. It's kind of funny that when the Atkins' diet first came out one of the early criticisms was that the diet blunted hunger too much! What, is it mandatory to be hungry on a reduced calorie diet?

6. The last benefit has to do with the fact that a ketone body is an inefficient fuel source due to the fact that when the fatty acid is converted to a KB it contains 7 calories. This means that the normal pound of fat has less than 3500 calories.

Where Is The Scientific Data?

The state of ketosis is to the most part controlled by insulin, glucagon, and blood glucose levels. Insulin is one of the hormones that the pancreas secretes in the presence of carbohydrates. Insulin's purpose is to keep blood glucose levels in check by acting like a driver, pushing the glucose in the blood into cells. If insulin were not to be secreted blood glucose levels would get out of control and this would not be good for the body.

Glucagon on the other side of the spectrum is insulin's antagonistic hormone which is also secreted by the pancreas when insulin falls to quite low levels, this usually happens when a person skips meals, or does not consume adequate amounts of carbohydrates for an extended period of time. When this happens glucagon is secreted by the pancreas to break down stored glycogen in the liver into a more usable form, glucose. But what happens if this continues and liver glycogen runs out? This is where the metabolic state of ketosis comes in, because the pancreas can also start breaking down free fatty acids into a usable energy substrate, also known as ketones, or ketone bodies.

What Is A Ketone, Or A Ketone Body (KB)?

A KB is formed in the liver through the Krebs cycle, or the citric acid cycle. When there is no glycogen for the body to run off of, the pancreas releases glucagon. Glucagon is a catabolic hormone, since it is used to break down body tissues for energy. In our case glucagon is very important since it is used to convert free fatty acids into the energy substrate called a ketone. Ketones are free fatty acids broken down through a process that involves carnitine and glucagon. After the free fatty acids are processed in the liver the fats have been transformed into beta-hydroxybutyric and aceto-acetic acids, or, what you and I know them as, "ketones".

Does Being In The Metabolic State Of Ketosis Present Dangers?

In reality the benefits of the ketogenic diet heavily outweigh the few pit falls it may have. Some of the points of arguments are:

1. During the first few weeks of the ketogenic diet the body has to go through the "metabolic shift", as Mauro DiPasquale calls it. While going through this the body will experience a small degree of fatigue and brain fog, but once the body gets used to manufacturing ketones as the main energy substrate the body actually has more energy than it previously had, and you won't have to be fighting through all those low blood sugar crashes that your high carb meals previously gave you. Also when in ketosis, ketones are the preferred energy substrate for the brain over protein.

2. Blood lipid profile is also a concern on the ketogenic diet due to the staggering amounts of saturated fats in the diet, although the diet can be centered around healthy fats, what is not as fun as eating a egg and cheese omelet fried in butter with bacon on the side! The issue of blood lipid profile is experiencing much debate due to the fact that for some people following the ketogenic diet, they will experience a drop in cholesterol levels, while for some it will increase.

3. Another point is that since carbohydrates are so restricted during the no carbohydrate portion the issue of micronutrient deficiencies can occur. The best thing to do to avoid this is to make sure you take a high quality multi vitamin /mineral twice a day to insure that you are getting 100% of the daily value. Also supplementing with a fiber supplement is a good idea to make sure you plumbing doesn't get clogged, if you know what I mean. Another course of action one can take is to make sure that on the high carbohydrate period of the diet you consume adequate amounts of fibrous green vegetables, and also quality carbohydrate sources such as brown rice, squash, sweet potatoes, and whole-wheat pastas.

4. This last focus point is the danger of ketoacidosis. This occurs when the level of ketones in the blood gets out of control, this happens because ketones are acidic only as long as they are floating around waiting to be burned. If the level of ketones in the blood rises out of control it would lower the pH of the blood and this could result in death. BUT, this is not a concern for the non-diabetic whatsoever because for the non-diabetic blood sugar levels are kept low by our bodies and it will only allow so many ketones to be manufactured at one time. In the diabetic person blood sugar can rise as high as 300-2000mg/dl, where as normal being around 80-120. Also when this happens the low insulin to glucagon ratio causes ketogenesis to be stimulated, this is where the person can run into ketoacidosis.

What About The Anti Catabolic Effects Of The Ketogenic Diet?

Every reduced calorie diet is Catabolic, meaning that they can cause you to lose muscle. It's a fact! This is largely due to the fact that on a reduced calorie diet many of the anabolic hormones in the body are significantly reduced. Added to that most dieters do copious amounts of aerobic exercise when dieting which is a very good way to catabolize muscle. So the main thing we can try to do is lose the least amount of muscle possible when dieting, or even possibly rebuild lost tissue, which is where the carb-up comes in. But that will not be discussed in this chapter.

Other than hormonal reasons the main reason why catabolism occurs is because protein will be broken down, or catabolized, to make glucose. This is because the brain uses a boat load of glycogen, upwards of 25% of the body's glucose. Now when carbohydrates are restricted, the body will still need glucose for the brain, so it is forced to breakdown protein mostly from your own muscle tissue.

Now, ketosis is different because when in the state of ketosis the brain will prefer ketones over glucose. For the dieter this is very good because the body will not have to break down protein for energy. In turn the body will be forced to use its fat reserves, a.k.a. your love handles, for its energy. This is why ketosis is such a good method of dieting.

So What Is The Best Way To Get There?

Ultimately the best way to get into ketosis is to incorporate the use of performance enhancers into the diet. But that is a topic for a later chapter, for now I will explain the best way to get into ketosis using mostly dietary tricks.

Through experimentation I have found that the best way to get into the metabolic state of ketosis is starting off using a fairly high fat intake with small amounts of protein. After your body gets into ketosis I feel that the fat intake can be reduced and the protein intake can be increased.

During the first two days after the carb-up, I suggest the dieter use a ratio of 80% fat, 20% protein, and no carbs, except the small amounts in eggs, and the small amount in cheese. Due to the low amounts of protein, insulin will drop faster, because protein can be converted in to glucose with about 58% efficiency, allowing the dieter to reach ketosis quicker. After those two days the ratios are going to change slightly because the body will need more protein for muscle tissue.

After the two days the dieter should change the ratios to 65% fat, 30% protein, and 5% carbs. This will insure that the dieter stays in ketosis but also has enough protein for the muscles. The small amounts of carbs should mostly come from high fiber veggies to insure adequate bowel movements.

Now the no carb period can be used longer causing the carb up to be more infrequent, but for most people the carb up will be Friday night and all day Saturday. Before Friday's workout we want to insure maximal glycogen super compensation. To do this the dieter is going to drop his amounts of saturated fats and make sure that his intake is only of quality fats. This is due to the effects that saturated fats have on insulin sensitivity.

Also around two hours before the workout the dieter should consume a small amount of carbs, a PowerBar will work well in this situation. This is so the body will not be running off ketones and blood glucose will be able to drop lower than the normal state of ketosis, which is around 50-60. This is important due to the fact that the lower the blood glucose in the body, the more of an anabolic effect the carb-load will have on the muscles. This is important because the main goal of the carb-up is to rebuild any muscle loss that occurred during the week, and we want all the possible carbs available for muscular anabolism to occur. But the main science about glycogen super compensation is to come later in the my book.

[waderow]

In my last article I presented the scientific research pertaining to the metabolic state of ketosis. While in the state of ketosis we come to realize that it is the optimal metabolic state to activate the breakdown of dietary/stored fat. This is one of the greatest benefits of dieting while using the Ketogenic dieting route. Now we know that ketosis presents a highly anti-catabolic environment even while on a reduced calorie diet. So now the question on everybody's mind is, "Can you use the Cyclic Ketogenic Diet (CKD) as a way to gain a substantial amount of muscle mass while keeping body fat accumulation to a minimum?"

The Diet

The most important aspect about using the CKD as a means of bulking is to set your calorie level around 20% (25x bodyweight) over your normal daily calorie level. On a similar note if this causes your calorie level to be too low/high you can always adjust it to fit your individual needs. The best way to consume the copious amounts of calories needed while bulking is to eat a high amount of: steak, chicken, fish, whole eggs, sausage, bacon, and protein and oil shakes. The best way to set this up is to adhere to the "ketogenic ratio," which is some where around 1.5 g of fat for every gram of protein. Your meal planning should consist of anywhere around 5-10 meals a day, that's right I did say 10. This is to constantly keep your muscle cells saturated with the optimal nutrients for growth.

The most substantial difference with using the Ketogenic diet for bulking opposed to cutting is the carbohydrates. During the bulking phase I recommend a 36-hour carb-load, this is to allow a substantial influx of carbs into the muscle but not to over do it. The next major difference is that you are to have 1000 calories worth of carbs, with a good amount of whey protein, approximately two-hours before your Wednesday workout. The main goal of this carb-spike is to allow the person to have a substantial amount of muscle glycogen to maintain workout intensity.

Now as far as the carb-up goes, you can either start with very high glycemic carbs. Then taper down to lower glycemic carbs. The other route is to eat what you want. For a hard-core bulking routine this is what most people will do. If you are going to follow the "eat whatever you can get your hands on" route definitely try to choose the lower fat route. This means if you are going to get donuts, try to find the brand that's lower in fat. But if you know you can drop the fat off at a relatively fast pace, then go ahead and get Nesquick and Krispy Kreme and have a fun time!

Reasons For This Plan

All right, now I'll discuss my rational behind this radical plan. Since you will be carb-loading Friday night into Sunday morning you most definitely want to hit most of your body on Sunday when your muscle glycogen is overstocked. This is the main reason for the carb up (bulking or dieting). The next weight workout will be performed on Wednesday, and I advocate a 1000 calorie influx of carbohydrates (preferably simple) before that. The rational backing this up is that by Wednesday your muscle glycogen should be fairly low, this influx of carbs will restock your glycogen stores substantially and allow you to perform at an optimal level in the gym. The next weight workout will be performed on Friday night before the carb-up. On this workout you should be performing a heavy full body workout, mainly to fully deplete glycogen stores and causes an anabolic stimulus when you start exploding carbs into your muscles.

The Workout

I will not be deeply going into the workout schedule because people respond very differently to various workout routines. The main advice regarding working out is to hit half of the body Sunday when your carb stores are very full, hit the other half of the body on Wednesday after your carb-spike, and then hit the full body Friday (1-2 sets to failure) before the grand carb-up. Another key point of advice is to stress exercises such as, squats, lunges, dead lifts, barbell rows, bench press, military press, barbell/dumbbell curls, tricep pushdowns, close bench, and reverse curls. These are undoubtedly some of the best mass builders around and should be the core of your workout schedule. I highly recommend using different intensity techniques with these exercises. For example, have you ever tried doing a triple drop set with rack dead lifts? I'm talking about incorporating rest-pause and triple drops with compound movements. In another article I'll describe some death defying workouts.

As far as sets and reps are concerned, I highly advocate 1-2 very intense sets per exercise, around 3-4 exercises per body part (more for bigger muscles and less for smaller muscles). As far as reps go, I think anywhere between 4-10. When I go as low as 4 reps they are usually performed very, very slow with a 5 second pause at the peak contraction. They are also usually the first very heavy set in a 3 set drop.

As far as time in the gym goes, keep it to a minimum. Most people like to turn their workouts into a social hour. No, that is not how it should be, just hit your muscles as hard as you can and get the hell out of there! Also, I highly recommend to keep cardio to a minimum, although I do recommend 10 min. warm-ups and cool downs before the workouts. But aerobics can greatly hinder your workout intensity so keep them to a bare minimum. Plus they will not allow you to get the most out of your bulking phase, muscle wise.

Supplements

As far as the supplements go I highly advocate essential vitamins such as C, A, E, and a high quality multi. But the best supplements I will be discussing are glucose disposal agents. These will allow you to hit ketosis faster, and also allow you to ram jet even more glucose into your muscles during carb-load periods. A good dosing schedule for glucose disposal agents would be as follows:

Sunday-Monday-Tuesday

Vanadyl Sulfate 120 mg split over 6 of your meals
Chromium Picolinate 1000 mg split over 5 meals
Magnesium 1000 mg slip over 4 meals

Wednesday

Vanadyl Sulfate 50 mg with carb-spike meal
Chromium Picolinate 400 mg with same meal
Magnesium 250 mg with same meal

Friday night-Saturday Night

Same as Monday and Tuesday

Another powerful glucose disposal agent is alpha lipoic acid, which mimics insulin. A schedule for this would be as follows:

ALA 600-1200 mg a day in divided dosages

This would be used like the other glucose disposal dosage schedule. 200 mg would be taken Wednesday. The next best supplement to use is a combination of Creatine Monohydrate and Glutamine. These should be taken in high amounts only during the carb-up, to further increase cellular hydration. Creatine should be taken in around 40 g during your carb-up, and Glutamine should be taken in around 60 g along with the Creatine. Both will not be that beneficial during the low-carb portion, so save your money and use higher dosages during the carb-up. If Glutamine is not in your budget, then definitely use Creatine. Many people prefer to use the Creatine with a sugar base. That option will also work very well during carb-ups. This is because most companies will throw in some beneficial goodies.

On a further note, if you are going to be stuffing your face with Donuts during the carb-up, I highly recommend you take 1gram of HCA 30min. before meals. This is so you don't go overboard with your eating, and it also helps push glucose into the muscles and not the fat cells.

A Normal Days Bulking Diet

I am going to roughly outline a normal days bulking diet. The key word is roughly, this is just sample meals for the day, don't follow it meal for meal.

Meal 1: 3-5 eggs, cheese, bacon, butter on the eggs
Meal 2: 2 double cheeseburgers (no bun) with Mayo
Meal 3: tuna with Mayo
Meal 4: 2 double cheeseburgers with Mayo
Meal 5: Steak with cheese
Meal 6: Protein shake with flax oil, Natural Peanut butter
Meal 7: 3 egg omelet with mushrooms and cheese, bacon
Meal 8: Protein shake with flax oil, Olive oil

I repeat, this is just a rough outline not a recommendation. You can add more meals, or less meals. The diet setup is a very subjective thing.

Conclusion

Well, that's all for this article. Winter is coming up very shortly for all of you looking to put on a good amount of mass for your bulking phase. So, gain some mass, keep your body fat down, and have a fun time!

Questions or comments please contact me at KAS1N0l3I30Y@aol.com.

[natenator]

the above is a CKD diet and not a true keto/palumbo style diet.


VERY big difference.

[Praetorian]

can anyone recommend a good read on keto diet.

I am going to be doing my first run at keto in a couple months and want to read up.

I know the basics of course, but would like more knowledge to make it a more successful run.

Going to be likely 260-270 at end of Jan, and want to cut after that down to 240 in 12 weeks which should put me at or around 8%.

I could do this conventionally, but I am eager to try keto, and perhaps do it faster? Not really sure how I will react to keto, or its capabilities.

During the cut:

Will be running test P at 200mg EOD and am considering tren a at 100mg eod if I can stomach it. Have a pile of Var too....

I will probably do a log too

Trust me the best info on keto diets is Dave Palumbos Q&A thread on rxmuscle...it will provide all the info you require and more.
P

[waderow]

Trust me the best info on keto diets is Dave Palumbos Q&A thread on rxmuscle...it will provide all the info you require and more.
P

in those 81 pages I have flipped through maybe 15 or so, and there is too much chaff.

what is your business goals
what was that bump on your head in spain
am I too young for keto diet
etc
etc


I was hoping for a "guide" so to speak on the keto diet that I could read and educate myself on timing, and meals. Carb loading and duration. That kind of stuff

[waderow]

the above is a CKD diet and not a true keto/palumbo style diet.


VERY big difference.

so where would I find this. Is it something I have to buy? Which site would have the best info?

[natenator]

no such thing as carb loading.

Carb loading is for competitions

[natenator]

so where would I find this. Is it something I have to buy? Which site would have the best info?
hire Praetorian if you want to do it and do it right :D

[waderow]

no such thing as carb loading.

Carb loading is for competitions

I read carb days or cheat meals were for muscle preservation... But again, like I said I am looking to read up on this.

[natenator]

I read carb days or cheat meals were for muscle preservation... But again, like I said I am looking to read up on this.
in KETO (not CKD) you get one refeed meal once a week after the first 2 weeks.

400-500 grams of carbs in your last meal, as little fat as possible and about 50 grams of protein from a lean source.

[waderow]

as per dave palumbo

For a 200lb+ Man



MEAL #1
5 whole Omega-3 Eggs (with 4 additional whites)

MEAL #2
SHAKE: 54g Whey Protein Isolate*** with 1.5 Tablespoon of All Natural PB


MEAL #3
“Lean Protein Meal” 7oz (cooked) chicken (or Turkey, or Tuna, or tilapia, flounder, or cod) with 1/3-cup RAW almonds, cashews or walnuts

MEAL #4
SHAKE: 54g Whey Protein Isolate with 1 ½ tablespoons of All Natural Peanut butter (no sugar added)

MEAL #5
“Fatty Protein Meal” 7oz (cooked) Salmon, Swordfish, or 8oz RED MEAT (filet mignon, or top round cut) with a green salad (no tomatoes, carrots, or red peppers) with 1 tablespoon of Olive Oil or Macadamia nut oil and vinegar

MEAL #6
SHAKE: 54g Whey with 1 ½ tablespoon all natural peanut butter OR 4 whole Omega-3 eggs

*****MEAL ORDER IS UNIMPORTANT. ALL MEALS ARE EQUAL.


***ONCE A WEEK, HAVE A CHEAT MEAL (instead of MEAL #6) – try to make it the last meal of the day (start after 2 weeks on the diet)

[waderow]

that sample diet, would be increased by 25% for a 250 pound man?

[natenator]

that sample diet, would be increased by 25% for a 250 pound man?
perhaps but where are you increasing your calories? fat or protein?

[waderow]

I would increase equally.

also, would I start with higher fats, and then slowly increase protein after 2 weeks?

[ironwill]

I have a book on keto that was sent to me by Sean summers...Its an online book...Ill see if i can get it from my home comp and ill send it to you bro.....Just getting in here before you 2 start debating...lol

[waderow]

I have a book on keto that was sent to me by Sean summers...Its an online book...Ill see if i can get it from my home comp and ill send it to you bro.....Just getting in here before you 2 start debating...lol

cool.

waderow@safe-mail.net

[natenator]

I have a book on keto that was sent to me by Sean summers...Its an online book...Ill see if i can get it from my home comp and ill send it to you bro.....Just getting in here before you 2 start debating...lol
no debating.

Just saying he could say himself a lot of time and hassle if he just invested in someone who *actually* knew how to structure a keto diet, etc.

Pretty sure the book you got is on CKD by Lyle (version 1 or 2?) and not a pure palumbo style keto diet.

[waderow]

I want to see first if I can get a hold of it myself of course. I am a hands on guy. ALways have been and have learned well from trial and error. I am not competing and not going into a contest. Perhaps that may come if I cut up nice and its not devastating to my well being.

Right now, I just want to understand it, so I can 'A' either implement it myself in a couple months, or 'B' hire P. or someone to train me

[ironwill]

just jokes...i think its great...healthy debate helps us all learn......I cant remember which book it is... ill check on my home comp......
I hear ya on the getting help thing....But if not competing maybe one can learn quite a bit on their own, for contest, i agree 100 percent, i wont do it alone again until im seasoned...

[ironwill]

damn i posted same time as wade....sorry.same thoughts..:lick

[theboss]

i am also interested in trying this...

For a 250lb+ man:
Meal 1 6 whole *****-3 eggs
Meal 2 8oz chicken with 1/2 cup raw almonds
Meal 3 50g whey with 2 tablespoons all natural peanutbutter
Meal 4 8oz salmon with 1 cup asparagus with 1 tablespoon macadamia nut oil
Meal 5 50 g whey with 2 tablespoon PB
Meal 6 6 whole eggs

this was from this thread...

http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4487&highlight=famous+palumbo

[waderow]

omega is censored?

edit...nope, I guess not

[waderow]

what I am also interested in is insulin protocols. I would imagine there is none in a keto diet?

[Praetorian]

I read carb days or cheat meals were for muscle preservation... But again, like I said I am looking to read up on this.

Refeed meal is to replace glycogen stores for training and to increase thyroid T4 to T3 conversion. Muscle preservation is inherent in the keto diet because the fuel ofchoice is ketones not glucose...the only chance of losing muscle is on a low carb lowfat standard BB diet.
P

[Praetorian]

what I am also interested in is insulin protocols. I would imagine there is none in a keto diet?

Insulin promotes fat gain...its a storage hormone...with higher unsulin levels fat loss is halted...when glucagon levels are raised fat loss is accelerated. Exogenous insulin is NEVER used while dieting.
P

[waderow]

Insulin promotes fat gain...its a storage hormone...with higher unsulin levels fat loss is halted...when glucagin levels are raised fat loss is accelerated. Exogenous insulin is NEVER used while dieting.
P


understood. The high fat diet would not be good, but if cheat meal was low fat, high carbs, I though a humalog jab would help.


and t3? clen? eca? would a person want to incorporate supplements, or would the diet suffice. Keeping note, this is not intended to get me to a rip snorting 5% contest show. Maybe next time, but first I want to try this on and see. I am happy with physical appearance at 12%, so if I hit single digits, I am very pleased.

I am concerned about the cloudy head for a couple weeks....as I am a business owner.


I am excited about this.

What do you charge for a diet plan P?

[baza]

the above is a CKD diet and not a true keto/palumbo style diet.


VERY big difference.

Do you know what the K in CKD stands for? KETOGENIC. It is a TRUE keto diet, even more so then Palumbo. But yes, they are very different. Just boggles my mind how CKD has been around for ages, and Palumbo a few years, and some how Palumbo is the original or 'true' keto diet.

[natenator]

Do you know what the K in CKD stands for? KETOGENIC. It is a TRUE keto diet, even more so then Palumbo. But yes, they are very different. Just boggles my mind how CKD has been around for ages, and Palumbo a few years, and some how Palumbo is the original or 'true' keto diet.
keto in the sense that it is not a palumbo style diet which is what the majority of people mean when they say they want to learn about keto.

But the K stands for Keto? Really? Truly? You don't say?

[baza]

keto in the sense that it is not a palumbo style diet which is what the majority of people mean when they say they want to learn about keto.

Well they are both keto so to say one is 'true' makes no sense.


But the K stands for Keto? Really? Truly? You don't say?

You're the one that said CKD was not true keto, not me.

[waderow]

okay all you smartypantses

what does CKD stand for. (obviously I know about the K, and prob the D too)

[natenator]

cyclical

[Praetorian]

understood. The high fat diet would not be good, but if cheat meal was low fat, high carbs, I though a humalog jab would help.


and t3? clen? eca? would a person want to incorporate supplements, or would the diet suffice. Keeping note, this is not intended to get me to a rip snorting 5% contest show. Maybe next time, but first I want to try this on and see. I am happy with physical appearance at 12%, so if I hit single digits, I am very pleased.

I am concerned about the cloudy head for a couple weeks....as I am a business owner.


I am excited about this.

What do you charge for a diet plan P?

humalog is unnecessary while dieting.
t3, clen, gh, test etc can all be incorporated for the most efficient results.
P

check your pm's

[agingtechie]

You could check out "The Keytonic Diet" by Lyle McDonald.

he has a web site at bodyrecomposition.com

[Praetorian]

You could check out "The Keytonic Diet" by Lyle McDonald.

he has a web site at bodyrecomposition.com

most reference LM to a CKD diet big difference.

[waderow]

what is the difference

[Talo]

I've got a copy of the Anabolic diet that I can send you. It is a very good read. I'm sure thee are a few things in there that are a bit out dated , but it goes into good detail on how to do it and the health benifits from doing it.

I need to re read this again :)

[waderow]

I've got a copy of the Anabolic diet that I can send you. It is a very good read. I'm sure thee are a few things in there that are a bit out dated , but it goes into good detail on how to do it and the health benifits from doing it.

I need to re read this again :)

thanks man. is it the ckd or classic ketogenic?

waderow@safe-mail.net

[Talo]

I'll send it in a few hours when I get to work.

I'm going to say it's the classic keto , from what I remember. Like I said I have to re-read this book ( and I will ) but your carbs are at the bare min . It's not a cooky cutter book either.

[waderow]

I'll send it in a few hours when I get to work.

I'm going to say it's the classic keto , from what I remember. Like I said I have to re-read this book ( and I will ) but your carbs are at the bare min . It's not a cooky cutter book either.

looking forward to it. Thanks bro

[tiramisu]

perhaps but where are you increasing your calories? fat or protein?

1.5-2.0 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight then do whatever you please.

[Praetorian]

what is the difference

CKD involves carb ups...a specific keto diet doesnt...the Anabolic diet contains too much fat, saturated fat, nitrites etc...its keto but not ideal.
P

[waderow]

so without the carb ups, you will burn fat faster. and the nature of ketosis, you will not catabolize muscle.

so why ckd? do you feel better on it?

[natenator]

1.5-2.0 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight then do whatever you please.
that made no sense.

[natenator]

so without the carb ups, you will burn fat faster. and the nature of ketosis, you will not catabolize muscle.

so why ckd? do you feel better on it?
I'm not sure how one feels on CKD but I can tell you on a Palumbo style keto I felt fantastic.

Never hungry except after my refeed meals
Lot of energy except after my refeed meals
Strength was excellent

I only had 2 issues with the diet. Stomach digestion issues - shitting became a problem even with all the fiber supplement I was taking but I think that was just my normal reaction to the diet.

The other issue wasn't diet related but Preatorian related and all the ****ing cardio he had me doing lol

[waderow]

I'm not sure how one feels on CKD but I can tell you on a Palumbo style keto I felt fantastic.

Never hungry except after my refeed meals
Lot of energy except after my refeed meals
Strength was excellent

I only had 2 issues with the diet. Stomach digestion issues - shitting became a problem even with all the fiber supplement I was taking but I think that was just my normal reaction to the diet.

The other issue wasn't diet related but Preatorian related and all the ****ing cardio he had me doing lol

boner issues? dont be shy, no judging here

did you try to up fibre?

how long till shit became regular

[Talo]

CKD involves carb ups...a specific keto diet doesnt...the Anabolic diet contains too much fat, saturated fat, nitrites etc...its keto but not ideal.
P

I agree , but this can be modified to use healthy fats , yes?

[natenator]

boner issues? dont be shy, no judging here

did you try to up fibre?

how long till shit became regular
lol I wish I had wood issues.

The girl I was seeing at the time was pissed off at P because he had me doing so much cardio. I was kinda glad to be doing so much cardio as it meant I had an excuse to sleep hahaha

Regularity wasn't a big issue in the beginning it was in the 3-4 week onward mark where it became an issue. Trust me, Pr and I were using every cominbation in the book to get me flowing. Finally I started resorting to exlax a couple times a week and if they didn't help I was to move onto suppositories lol (shudder)

[waderow]

lol I wish I had wood issues.

The girl I was seeing at the time was pissed off at P because he had me doing so much cardio. I was kinda glad to be doing so much cardio as it meant I had an excuse to sleep hahaha

Regularity wasn't a big issue in the beginning it was in the 3-4 week onward mark where it became an issue. Trust me, Pr and I were using every cominbation in the book to get me flowing. Finally I started resorting to exlax a couple times a week and if they didn't help I was to move onto suppositories lol (shudder)

good god. now I am worried. I thought the high fats would really help things out. I guess its the opposite

[natenator]

good god. now I am worried. I thought the high fats would really help things out. I guess its the opposite
I dunno dude. I think that;s just how I respond to the diet. I don't think I was the norm but maybe P can help answer that question.

[Talo]

Constipation was a huge issue for me too. I picked up some ph from the health store which helped a bit but still not normal. Prob the main reason I won't do that diet again.

[waderow]

I dunno dude. I think that;s just how I respond to the diet. I don't think I was the norm but maybe P can help answer that question.

that could be real hard.... maybe thats why people do CKD.


Constipation was a huge issue for me too. I picked up some ph from the health store which helped a bit but still not normal. Prob the main reason I won't do that diet again.

what is ph?

[natenator]

Constipation was a huge issue for me too. I picked up some ph from the health store which helped a bit but still not normal. Prob the main reason I won't do that diet again.
The thing I didn't like the most about it was it was ****ing with my head scale wise.

The past few weeks before I stopped my weight wasn't really moving much on the scale. I know I was getting leaner as the pics showed that but the scale was actually moving up some weeks. It was hugely ****ing with my head to know I am hauling ass like you wouldn't believe - literally killing myself - to get the job done and the scale goes UP.

The day before my weighin days I was taking whatever I could to get myself to go and flush me out (also when you have digestion issues you start to hold water too) so that when I weighed in I was hopefully down on the scale. Anythingh I could do to not give P a reason to increase my cardio lol

If you do not have that kind of pressure on you then I see no prob;lem with this diet. Even if you do as long as you are working with someone that can keep you sane then you are good to go. I really like how well I retained muscle.

Liek I said in a thread before, I went from incline pressing 275-285 when I started the diet to 335'ish when I finished the diet. Shoulder pressing the 105-110 to 120-125. Some didn't really increase like legs but that's always a tricky battle anyways for me given my knee issues of the past.

[waderow]

The thing I didn't like the most about it was it was ****ing with my head scale wise.

The past few weeks before I stopped my weight wasn't really moving much on the scale. I know I was getting leaner as the pics showed that but the scale was actually moving up some weeks. It was hugely ****ing with my head to know I am hauling ass like you wouldn't believe - literally killing myself - to get the job done and the scale goes UP.

The day before my weighin days I was taking whatever I could to get myself to go and flush me out (also when you have digestion issues you start to hold water too) so that when I weighed in I was hopefully down on the scale. Anythingh I could do to not give P a reason to increase my cardio lol

If you do not have that kind of pressure on you then I see no prob;lem with this diet. Even if you do as long as you are working with someone that can keep you sane then you are good to go. I really like how well I retained muscle.

Liek I said in a thread before, I went from incline pressing 275-285 when I started the diet to 335'ish when I finished the diet. Shoulder pressing the 105-110 to 120-125. Some didn't really increase like legs but that's always a tricky battle anyways for me given my knee issues of the past.

what supplements? test only?

[natenator]

what supplements? test only?
AAS wise?

Test + EQ + clen + T3 + GH + aromasin

All very lose does. Lowest I have probably ever run with exception of my first cycle.

[baza]

CKD

Any kind of fats, saturated, anything.
Higher fats
Lower protein
Carb up - 36HRs (over the top)

Palumbo

Healthier fats
Lower daily fat
Higher protein
Carb up meal. Minimum carb up, believing that's all you need.


A small number will feel like shit on Palumbo, I believe because fats are much lower than CKD.

[Talo]

what is ph?

Psyllium Husk

http://www.colonzone.org/psyllium-husk.php


BTW - just got to work , so the book is on it's way :)

[Talo]

Last June when I had to drop 15lbs to hit my weight ( PL comp , so alot different than what you had to do Nate ) I did more of a TCD . I took what I new from the keto , but added in carbs - Post workout and first meal of the day only . I felt this worked well and my system never got messed up , meaning I stayed regular.

That could be another option for you Waderow.

[Praetorian]

I agree , but this can be modified to use healthy fats , yes?

It could but then it wouldnt be the Anabolic diet.
P

[Praetorian]

I dunno dude. I think that;s just how I respond to the diet. I don't think I was the norm but maybe P can help answer that question.

Fats do help but fibre essential...99% of all my clients run Fiberlyze and have zero digestion issues. There are other things that may be a factor however...stress is one which can lead to IBS...ive gone through that myself while dieting and then it becomes very tricky.
P

[Praetorian]

CKD

Any kind of fats, saturated, anything.
Higher fats
Lower protein
Carb up - 36HRs (over the top)

Palumbo

Healthier fats
Lower daily fat
Higher protein
Carb up meal. Minimum carb up, believing that's all you need.


A small number will feel like shit on Palumbo, I believe because fats are much lower than CKD. ACTUALLY THE MAIN REASON IS THEY ARE INCLUDNG SMALL AMOUNTS OF CARBS

P

[Praetorian]

Last June when I had to drop 15lbs to hit my weight ( PL comp , so alot different than what you had to do Nate ) I did more of a TCD . I took what I new from the keto , but added in carbs - Post workout and first meal of the day only . I felt this worked well and my system never got messed up , meaning I stayed regular.

That could be another option for you Waderow.

Thus you werent running a keto diet...with carbs in your first meal and pwo...you would never be in ketosis. A balance of soluable and insoluable fibre would have helped.
P

[Talo]

^^ I know I wasn't . I will never run a keto again and this is what I did instead , which i found worked well. Strength loss was nill and I went from 235 to 216.

I ran the anabolic diet about 2 years ago. But keeped all the bad fats to a min.

[ironwill]

Wade, my friggin hard drive locked up, cant get in...still trying....crap.....

[Praetorian]

^^ I know I wasn't . I will never run a keto again and this is what I did instead , which i found worked well. Strength loss was nill and I went from 235 to 216.

I ran the anabolic diet about 2 years ago. But keeped all the bad fats to a min.

I ran keto and pulled my best deadlift ever 705 at 225 (3weeks out
)...never lost an once of muscle and strength dropped initially a bit but rebounded within 3-4 weeks as the body adjusted.
You need to run keto correctly, and you need to be patient...most who try keto and quit or dont like it fail at these two points.
P

[agingtechie]

most reference LM to a CKD diet big difference.

Yep,

Even the Wikipedia entry for 'Cyclic Ketogenic Diet'

leads to Lyle McDonald and also here...

http://www.keto.org/summary.htm


Maybe I will just read the rest of this thread. There is some very cool information here.

Thanks.

[rickyboy36]

Insulin promotes fat gain...its a storage hormone...with higher unsulin levels fat loss is halted...when glucagon levels are raised fat loss is accelerated. Exogenous insulin is NEVER used while dieting.
P

It does if its not used right.You can use Insulin to get into Ketosis FASTER..and when i mean faster i mean 8-12hours instead of 2-3 days.Humulin-R i used.Its a longer lasting insulin than Humalog.Its taken right after your last meal.I can send you a link if you want explaining the whole thing

As for a good read on Ketosis,I can send you Dan Duchaines Bodyopus or Lyle Mc Donalds last book on ketosis.It has everything you need to understand about carbloading and getting into Ketosis.

In essence its a way to lose fat quickly when other "normal" diets have plateaued so to speak and when one has reached a bf level of about 12%.The high fat intake preserves the muscle and allows you to use ketones as a your main energy source.It takes a lot of energy to transform adipose tissue into ketones and the body needs alot of them(ketones are not a very efficent fuel source) to function properly.Six FULL days of Ketosis is ideal.More than that they say you can lose muscle.

And for the loading up phase its more or less 36-48 hours to reach supercompensation.Then once that is reached,you start all over again by draining all your glycogen stores with brutal workouts.With that said,i have found something of interest that is not explained in any of those books but was mentioned on a particular board. It said to continue using low GI carbs and train on the 3rd day and the 4th day while maintaing a normal 40/40/20 diet.They say by being in this supercompensation stage,youre actually gaining muscle cause you are very strong and are in a very anabolic environment.Then,when that last workout is done late on the 4th day,you start all over again.I actually started as of today doing this.Ill let you guys know how it worked out.

Just let me know bro if you want me to send you those PDF files to you!
Goodluck

[rickyboy36]

Ohhh.I wanted to mention to the newbies here that Insulin is very dangerous and is not something you should be using if you dont have much knowledge of it.Insulin can put you into a deep coma and kill you if you dont do it right....

[Praetorian]

It does if its not used right.You can use Insulin to get into Ketosis FASTER..and when i mean faster i mean 8-12hours instead of 2-3 days.Humulin-R i used.Its a longer lasting insulin than Humalog.Its taken right after your last meal.I can send you a link if you want explaining the whole thing

As for a good read on Ketosis,I can send you Dan Duchaines Bodyopus or Lyle Mc Donalds last book on ketosis.It has everything you need to understand about carbloading and getting into Ketosis.

In essence its a way to lose fat quickly when other "normal" diets have plateaued so to speak and when one has reached a bf level of about 12%.The high fat intake preserves the muscle and allows you to use ketones as a your main energy source.It takes a lot of energy to transform adipose tissue into ketones and the body needs alot of them(ketones are not a very efficent fuel source) to function properly.Six FULL days of Ketosis is ideal.More than that they say you can lose muscle.

And for the loading up phase its more or less 36-48 hours to reach supercompensation.Then once that is reached,you start all over again by draining all your glycogen stores with brutal workouts.With that said,i have found something of interest that is not explained in any of those books but was mentioned on a particular board. It said to continue using low GI carbs and train on the 3rd day and the 4th day while maintaing a normal 40/40/20 diet.They say by being in this supercompensation stage,youre actually gaining muscle cause you are very strong and are in a very anabolic environment.Then,when that last workout is done late on the 4th day,you start all over again.I actually started as of today doing this.Ill let you guys know how it worked out.

Just let me know bro if you want me to send you those PDF files to you!
Goodluck

Ive read all that years ago...its LM classic CKD with insulin being used to help enter ketosis faster...it is inefficient to say the least not to mention dangerous. On a strict keto diet insulin is unnecessary and will slow progress.
P

[rickyboy36]

Ive read all that years ago...its LM classic CKD with insulin being used to help enter ketosis faster...it is inefficient to say the least not to mention dangerous. On a strict keto diet insulin is unnecessary and will slow progress.
P

Thank-you for the response.Im curious as to why you say its "inefficient" when many have reported much success with it.Remember it is used with your last CARB meal and everything is carefully monitored.No fat gain and you enter Ketoses way faster.To me thats being EFFICIENT.Ive also heard that HUMALOG can be used during the supercompensation stage with great success as well but i cannot find any info on it...

Of course, i agree it can be dangerous if you DONT KNOW what you are doing.But when you do know what you are doing and have the necessary "backup" tools just in case something "might" go wrong then i think it can be used safely.But again,knowledge is paramount!

[Talo]

I ran keto and pulled my best deadlift ever 705 at 225 (3weeks out
)...never lost an once of muscle and strength dropped initially a bit but rebounded within 3-4 weeks as the body adjusted.
You need to run keto correctly, and you need to be patient...most who try keto and quit or dont like it fail at these two points.
P

Where you clean at the time ? ( just asking , not saying you weren't or anything ).

Maybe I didn't give it the best of chances when I did run it and that was because I couldn't stand NOT being able to go #2 . Honestly I wont be stepping onto a bb stage again so I don't ever need to be down under 10% bf ( yes, I know you guys go a hell of a lot lower than that ) . I function better with carbs in me.

[Praetorian]

Thank-you for the response.Im curious as to why you say its "inefficient" when many have reported much success with it.Remember it is used with your last CARB meal and everything is carefully monitored.No fat gain and you enter Ketoses way faster.To me thats being EFFICIENT.Ive also heard that HUMALOG can be used during the supercompensation stage with great success as well but i cannot find any info on it...

Of course, i agree it can be dangerous if you DONT KNOW what you are doing.But when you do know what you are doing and have the necessary "backup" tools just in case something "might" go wrong then i think it can be used safely.But again,knowledge is paramount!

The carb up time slows fat loss significantly and without the insulin you lose additional time...even worse. There is no need to come out of ketosis for so long...you are NOT building muscle...so what is the point. One cheat meal is sufficient to increase thyroid levels and to store needed glycogen for training....getting back into ketosis 8 hours later without risk...is much more efficient. Using humalogfor supercompensation is unnecessary during a keto diet because you are already more carb sensitive then ever. It also lowers glucagon levels which slows or halts fat loss.
P

[Praetorian]

Where you clean at the time ? ( just asking , not saying you weren't or anything ).

Maybe I didn't give it the best of chances when I did run it and that was because I couldn't stand NOT being able to go #2 . Honestly I wont be stepping onto a bb stage again so I don't ever need to be down under 10% bf ( yes, I know you guys go a hell of a lot lower than that ) . I function better with carbs in me.

That would be a fantastic lift clean but no i cannot claim that...I can understand the #2 issue but if you take steps to alleviate that you may just change your mind...you think your body functions better with carb...but you cant say for sure because you havent been in ketosis long enough to adapt.
P

[Talo]

you cant say for sure because you havent been in ketosis long enough to adapt.


True .

I think if I was to ever go and do it again I will hire you to help me. What is your rate ?

[Praetorian]

True .

I think if I was to ever go and do it again I will hire you to help me. What is your rate ?

Check your PM's.
P

[rickyboy36]

The carb up time slows fat loss significantly and without the insulin you lose additional time...even worse. There is no need to come out of ketosis for so long...you are NOT building muscle...so what is the point. One cheat meal is sufficient to increase thyroid levels and to store needed glycogen for training....getting back into ketosis 8 hours later without risk...is much more efficient. Using humalogfor supercompensation is unnecessary during a keto diet because you are already more carb sensitive then ever. It also lowers glucagon levels which slows or halts fat loss.
P

Ohh ok,I get it..if you only have one cheat meal a week then I AGREE you do not need insulin.But you see,many trainers believe(on Pro Muscle) that you can gain on a ketosis diet and even more so after a supercompensation carbup.Some even advocate an extra 2 days of carbs(eating clean carbs ) where you would train all out and put yourself in a very high anabolic environment.Then right after,with the insulin get right back into ketosis without missing a beat.

I guess it all boils down to one's belief (and genetics)in thinking that gaining muscle on a diet like this is possible.If you do believe that you can gain,then i think insulin use would be very efficient(with the right knowledge of course).If you dont believe you can,then try the one cheat meal and never mind the insulin.

All together though, diets with only one cheat meal of carbs would drive me crazy i think.Seeing myself constantly small when looking in the mirror would eventually start messing with my mind.The other way would most definatley keep me sane.And Even if I didnt gain mass,its always fun feeling "blownup" and seeing yourself as big.You may laugh but i know many guys who let go of a diet cause they seem themselves as small!!!.Plus i also find it easier to monitor my fat loss cause i am not in a constant flabby,depleted state(you will never see yourself as full with one cheat meal--plus you are going to bed right after).I say If you are not competing or not in a hurry and want that good feeling of being full and strong once again,then maybe you should give it a try to see if YOU can gain mass from it as well.

To each their own :):)

[BCprick]

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/the-ketogenic-diet

[ironwill]

You have mail wade....victory is mine, i found it...

[waderow]

You have mail wade....victory is mine, i found it...

deadly. thanks man

[Praetorian]

Ohh ok,I get it..if you only have one cheat meal a week then I AGREE you do not need insulin.But you see,many trainers believe(on Pro Muscle) that you can gain on a ketosis diet and even more so after a supercompensation carbup.Some even advocate an extra 2 days of carbs(eating clean carbs ) where you would train all out and put yourself in a very high anabolic environment.Then right after,with the insulin get right back into ketosis without missing a beat.

I guess it all boils down to one's belief (and genetics)in thinking that gaining muscle on a diet like this is possible.If you do believe that you can gain,then i think insulin use would be very efficient(with the right knowledge of course).If you dont believe you can,then try the one cheat meal and never mind the insulin.

All together though, diets with only one cheat meal of carbs would drive me crazy i think.Seeing myself constantly small when looking in the mirror would eventually start messing with my mind.The other way would most definatley keep me sane.And Even if I didnt gain mass,its always fun feeling "blownup" and seeing yourself as big.You may laugh but i know many guys who let go of a diet cause they seem themselves as small!!!.Plus i also find it easier to monitor my fat loss cause i am not in a constant flabby,depleted state(you will never see yourself as full with one cheat meal--plus you are going to bed right after).I say If you are not competing or not in a hurry and want that good feeling of being full and strong once again,then maybe you should give it a try to see if YOU can gain mass from it as well.

To each their own :):)

Gaining muscle while dieting is a nice thought however it is unrealistic. If you want to get lean...I mean competition lean then you will have to make sacrafices...that means being hungry, tired, feeling flat etc You are completely correct when you say guys let go of their diet because they see themselves as small...more guys then you would think actually. Thats why everyones a BB in the gym but youve never seen them on stage...they dont have the mind power. Its easy to go do a heavy leg workout fully loaded on carbs...try that after 12 weeks of dieting with trace carbs and 2 hours of cardio daily...all the wannabe BB's are no where to be found. as well trying to do two things at the same time ie diet/gain muscle will generally lead to overall failure or lacking on one of the points. Make things simple and efficient....gain as much muscle as you can offseason...then diet and get as lean as you possibly can...you will be much more successful.
P

[Big D]

learn something new every day, this is a great thread.

This got me real curious about the keto diet.

P your the man, i'll be getting in touch with you, if I ever want to try this diet.

[Millennium Drop]

Gaining muscle while dieting is a nice thought however it is unrealistic. If you want to get lean...I mean competition lean then you will have to make sacrafices...that means being hungry, tired, feeling flat etc You are completely correct when you say guys let go of their diet because they see themselves as small...more guys then you would think actually. Thats why everyones a BB in the gym but youve never seen them on stage...they dont have the mind power. Its easy to go do a heavy leg workout fully loaded on carbs...try that after 12 weeks of dieting with trace carbs and 2 hours of cardio daily...all the wannabe BB's are no where to be found. as well trying to do two things at the same time ie diet/gain muscle will generally lead to overall failure or lacking on one of the points. Make things simple and efficient....gain as much muscle as you can offseason...then diet and get as lean as you possibly can...you will be much more successful.
P

Chines proverb "he who chases two rabbits, catches none"

Seriously two hours a day? I did two a days on Palumbo, cardio in the am and lifting late afternoon. both five days a week, I took weekends off.

Should I switch? Lift three days and do cardio twice a day the others????

I have had seriously good results on palumbo with cardio, and didn't feel hungry, tired or "backed up" after two weeks on it. The first two weeks was a mental marathon!

[rickyboy36]

Gaining muscle while dieting is a nice thought however it is unrealistic. If you want to get lean...I mean competition lean then you will have to make sacrafices...that means being hungry, tired, feeling flat etc You are completely correct when you say guys let go of their diet because they see themselves as small...more guys then you would think actually. Thats why everyones a BB in the gym but youve never seen them on stage...they dont have the mind power. Its easy to go do a heavy leg workout fully loaded on carbs...try that after 12 weeks of dieting with trace carbs and 2 hours of cardio daily...all the wannabe BB's are no where to be found. as well trying to do two things at the same time ie diet/gain muscle will generally lead to overall failure or lacking on one of the points. Make things simple and efficient....gain as much muscle as you can offseason...then diet and get as lean as you possibly can...you will be much more successful.
P

Great post!But you see,wether or not you see gains is besides the point,although one will never know unless he tries.I think Iron will gained on his diet,but then again im not sure how he did his.The thing is sir,not everyone WANTS to go on stage..and its not because one does not want to go onstage that he's a wanna be or doesnt have the discipline to do so.Most of us here want to be in good shaoe and look good on the beach and i find theres absolutley nothing wrong with that.

Remember,it's the journey we want to have fun with...at least for the most of us who dont want to compete and that would be probably 90% of us...

[natenator]

Great post!But you see,wether or not you see gains is besides the point,although one will never know unless he tries.I think Iron will gained on his diet,but then again im not sure how he did his.The thing is sir,not everyone WANTS to go on stage..and its not because one does not want to go onstage that he's a wanna be or doesnt have the discipline to do so.Most of us here want to be in good shaoe and look good on the beach and i find theres absolutley nothing wrong with that.

Remember,it's the journey we want to have fun with...at least for the most of us who dont want to compete and that would be probably 90% of us...
I'd said this before and I'll get flamed or into an argument about it again I;m sure but what part of caloric surplus to gain muscle do people not understand????

How can one gain new MUSCLE while in a caloric surplus which if you are dieting you better well be!

[gsxr750]

Like P said, the muscle comes from air.. lol

[Talo]

Nate, doesn't surplus mean above maintaince ? Do you mean calore deflict ?


I do agree that a person would be lucky to keep all the muscle they have while on a deflict. The best chance of doind this IMOwould be on the keto.

[natenator]

Nate, doesn't surplus mean above maintaince ? Do you mean calore deflict ?
bingo!

To gain means you have to be in a surplus. To lose you need ot be in a deficit. So HOW can you gain while losing?? lol

[Talo]

Agree.

Maybe I read your post wrong , but it sounded like you said you can't gain muscle while in a surplus.


How can one gain new muscle while in a calaric surplus ?

[rickyboy36]

I'd said this before and I'll get flamed or into an argument about it again I;m sure but what part of caloric surplus to gain muscle do people not understand????

How can one gain new MUSCLE while in a caloric surplus which if you are dieting you better well be!

Two things in response to this:

1-nutrient partitioning..have you ever heard of it?When meals are perfectly timed,this can take effect..and can happen sometimes even in a caloric DEFICIT!!

2-When in a supercompensation state you are NO LONGER in a caloric deficit(not surplus) cause you are eating way over your maintenance and filling up your glycogen stores,without adding one ounce of fat which makes nutrient partitioning even easier.Your strenght is out of this world and you are in a super anabolic environment making muscle growth very possible.In essence,its going from on extreme state to another and making a TRANSITION as quick as possible.So one will make a TRANSIT into ketosis and lose weight.Then will go into another TRANSITION for a 2-4 days to a supercompensating stage to gain muscle..then back to the TRANSITION stage for another day and back into ketosis.This is where insulin helps the most.You are not combining both "powers" of losing and gaining at the same time so to speak.....you are doing them INDIVIDUALY and taking advantage of nutrient partioning when in a supercompensation state...

So what ive been trying to say is you can have fun and remain sane while enjoying both extremes and possibly gain mass at the same time.The only way you will know is by trying it..which im doing right now..

[natenator]

Two things in response to this:

1-nutrient partitioning..have you ever heard of it?When meals are perfectly timed,this can take effect

2-When in a supercompensation state you are NO LONGER in a caloric deficit(not surplus) cause you are eating way over your maintenance and filling up your glycogen stores,without adding one ounce of fat which makes nutrient partitioning even easier.Your strenght is out of this world and you are in a super anabolic environment making muscle growth very possible.In essence,its going from on extreme state to another and making a TRANSITION as quick as possible.So one will make a TRANSIT into ketosis and lose weight.Then will go into another TRANSITION for a 2-4 days to a supercompensating stage to gain muscle..then back to the TRANSITION stage for another day and back into ketosis.This is where insulin helps the most.You are not combining both "powers" of losing and gaining at the same time so to speak.....

So what ive been trying to say is you can have fun and remain sane while enjoying both extremes and possibly gain mass at the same time.The only way you will know is by trying it..which im doing right now..
I'll believe it when I see it.

Hydrostatic testing only please. None of this caliper crap.

[waderow]

how do your workouts change after 3-4 weeks being on keto?

still the same?

lighter weight?

less reps? less sets?

[kloan]

I found strength went down initially, but went back up once I got used to the diet.. somewhere around week 3. Not really any significant strength gains, but I was at least lifting at the same weight I was before the diet. Same weights, reps, etc... but I was also drinking Dymatize Xtreme Pump before every work out which makes a big difference.

[waderow]

I dont want to get injured more than anything, so I am concerned about any body changes a person need to look out for.

[kloan]

I dont want to get injured more than anything, so I am concerned about any body changes a person need to look out for.

ah.. well.... everyone knows im no good with avoiding injury, so cant offer any help there. :p

[Praetorian]

Chines proverb "he who chases two rabbits, catches none"

Seriously two hours a day? I did two a days on Palumbo, cardio in the am and lifting late afternoon. both five days a week, I took weekends off.

Should I switch? Lift three days and do cardio twice a day the others????

I have had seriously good results on palumbo with cardio, and didn't feel hungry, tired or "backed up" after two weeks on it. The first two weeks was a mental marathon!

How you vary the diet and cardio will depend on your goals. If you only need to lose 10lbs or get somewhat lean then doing what you are doing is fine. If you are trying to get ripped or contest shape then youll need to increase cardio selectively as well as varythe diet.
P

[natenator]

I dont want to get injured more than anything, so I am concerned about any body changes a person need to look out for.
dieting on 3000 calories from protein and carbs or dieting on 3000 calories from protein and fat. Do you think the protein and fat one makes it more likely that you may get injured over the protein and carbs one?

[Praetorian]

Great post!But you see,wether or not you see gains is besides the point,although one will never know unless he tries.I think Iron will gained on his diet,but then again im not sure how he did his.The thing is sir,not everyone WANTS to go on stage..and its not because one does not want to go onstage that he's a wanna be or doesnt have the discipline to do so.Most of us here want to be in good shaoe and look good on the beach and i find theres absolutley nothing wrong with that.

Remember,it's the journey we want to have fun with...at least for the most of us who dont want to compete and that would be probably 90% of us...

Two days of carb up with 5 days of calorie deficit isnt building any significant muscle period. Muscle takes time to build even in a daily calorie surplus it takes months....2 days is insignificant. Many people think they have gained muscle dieting however if you actually test them hydrostatically you will find they did not...there are many variables involved ie non aromatizing androgens for one...either its measured or it doesnt exist. Everyones goal whether it be to lose 10lbs or compete is admirable...many of my clients do not have any desire to compete...however the discussion is about CKD and efficiency.
CKD is basically an inefficient keto diet. You may have fun running the diet but youll be far behind those who run a true keto....if thats ok with you than no worries.
P

[waderow]

dieting on 3000 calories from protein and carbs or dieting on 3000 calories from protein and fat. Do you think the protein and fat one makes it more likely that you may get injured over the protein and carbs one?

i dont know. thats why I asked. seems to be some, including yourself report injuries while on keto.

coincidence or not?

[Praetorian]

how do your workouts change after 3-4 weeks being on keto?

still the same?

lighter weight?

less reps? less sets?


They dont...maybe slightly less weight the first few weeks from a lack of leverage...ie water retention from carbs...however the body will adapt...also dont train with power reps...ie 1-3...save that for offseason....keep within 5-10 range
p

[Praetorian]

i dont know. thats why I asked. seems to be some, including yourself report injuries while on keto.

coincidence or not?

When dieting...you dont train for power...ie 1-3 reps...keep reps in the 5-10 range and youll be fine...also dont go beyond failure.
P

[#8]

i found this dude.

http://www.biblelife.org/ketosis.htm

hope that helps.

[Scaffer]

i found this dude.

http://www.biblelife.org/ketosis.htm

hope that helps.

THank you :a+

[natenator]

i dont know. thats why I asked. seems to be some, including yourself report injuries while on keto.

coincidence or not?
I got injured because of how I train: not too birth sometimes. I don't KNOW when to back down the weights in contest prep. I'm always pushing as hard as I absolutely can. Literally bust my balls and I don't listen to my body very well.

My biceip injnury was there before I got rolling with prep. The elbow came 3 weeks into prep. And, I kept going and kept pushing and pushing and pushing. Most people would have backed down the weights for a bit but instead I was stupid and kept trying to push the envelop and kill it every single session.

With any diet, large influx of calories or not you run the risk of injuries. If you train hard you are opening yourself up.

[waderow]

You have mail wade....victory is mine, i found it...

****. this is what I was looking for. I would call this the Keto bible

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ironwill again.

[ironwill]

I enjoyed it as well.......:)