View Full Version : To TRT or not?
Total Testosterone – 342 ng/dL (400-1200)
Ratio T/SHBG – 0.5 (0.7-1.0)
SHBG – 25 nmol/L (15-50)
LH – 3.4 U/L (1.0-8.4)
FSH – 4.7 U/L (1.0-10.5)
As you can see my free test is below normal, and total test is quite low also.
Had difficulties recovering from workouts
Erections weren’t quite as full as they used to be, and had trouble maintaining.
Lots of desire though, like 1-3 times per day.
Felt depressed for a couples days, every 4-5 weeks.
My doctor is old ~80
Doesn’t know much about TRT.
Gave me a box of androgel, which I tried 5g per day.
For two weeks, I felt way better. Happier, more energy, ED went away, actually woke up with morning wood!
Then it hit me, felt horrible, brain fog, tired, have trouble getting an erection (way worse than ever before, and seem to be losing the desire for sex)
I upped my dose to 10g per day.
Feel better, but still having ED.
Tried some Formestane incase of high E2 levels.
Helped alittle.
I’m thinking of backing out, using clomid 50,50,25,25 for PCT and maybe some natural test booster for libido.
I’ve only been on androgel for less than 3 weeks
May be able to talk my doctor into IM injections.
Not sure if I want to take this route though?
Is it worth it?
I may never have this chance again, as my doctor is retiring soon, and most doctors don’t have an open mind about things like this.
I’ll be 33 soon
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
RagingRandy
25-11-2009, 09:59 AM
IM is the way to go. The gel will take a long time to nomalize in your blood. HRT has been a godsend for me. For HRT you will only need to pin every 2 weeks. I suggest splitting the dose and doing it every week.
I have not seen any conclusive studies that show natural test boosters actually work. I did see one study that suggested that men with low test were helped. The problem is that most of these studies are done on healthy males. The IM injections will cost you less than the questionable supplements.
What were your numbers before you started?
Have you had any issue's with libido since?
I tried the androgel to possibly fix some problems with recovery, and ED problems.
I've only seemed to make things worse.
How much are you pinning per week?
Any AI?
RagingRandy
25-11-2009, 12:19 PM
What were your numbers before you started?
Have you had any issue's with libido since?
I tried the androgel to possibly fix some problems with recovery, and ED problems.
I've only seemed to make things worse.
How much are you pinning per week?
Any AI?
Not sure what they were but I was told they were low. The problem with the androgel is that until your blood stabilizes you will still get swings. Libido is up but not crazy, just normal. I run 250mg\week split into 2 doses. This is about double what I was prescribed.
I agree 100% with Randy. The gel and andriol are rather useless. I tried them both and they don't come anywhere close to the effects of IM.
NBguy
25-11-2009, 02:25 PM
Slab, how long have you've been off cycle? I'm having some issues also. trying to decide which method to use.
gsxr750
25-11-2009, 02:28 PM
Insist on IM as it's convenient for you. Tell your doc your wife/gf is a nurse and can do your injections for you
Not sure what they were but I was told they were low. The problem with the androgel is that until your blood stabilizes you will still get swings. Libido is up but not crazy, just normal. I run 250mg\week split into 2 doses. This is about double what I was prescribed.
Is that test e Randy?Any other issues that need to be addressed at that dosage from time to time?
RagingRandy
25-11-2009, 08:03 PM
Yep, Test E.I find I get a few more zits on chest and back than I used too. I am prone to them so you may be OK. If I had tanning available I would give it a try. I am running some HCG right now as the wife and I are looking to have a kid. Otherwise I would not bother.
NBguy,
My problems didn't arise from being on a cycle.
Things got much better sexually for two weeks on the androgel, then wham!
Dropped off way below normal, in just two days.
Been using formestane by CEL, 4 pumps at night, and things are going much better today.
Thinking E2 way pretty high.
Prostate has been kinda achy the last couple days.
Bet dht #'s are pretty high also
This gel idea is fine, but all the conversion to dht, and E2, I don't know...
I guess I'm looking for someone to give me reasons to not ask my doctor for IM injections, and go back natural, and find out why I'm having difficulties.
Everyone seems quite content being on TRT
Everyone seems quite content being on TRT
What's not to be content about feeling like a 21 year old? :)
What's not to be content about feeling like a 21 year old? :)
That's how I felt last week, 1.5 weeks into androgel.
......it did feel good! :)
get a referral to a specialist, see what he thinks.
i'm in the same boat, couldn't handle the mood swings with the gel though.
things are too busy for me right now to be traveling to another city to see a specialist so i'll be waiting till spring to follow up with things.
punkrock
30-11-2009, 06:08 PM
What were your numbers before you started?
Have you had any issue's with libido since?
I tried the androgel to possibly fix some problems with recovery, and ED problems.
I've only seemed to make things worse.
How much are you pinning per week?
Any AI?
I've been taking testim 50mg test per day to help with some ED problems as well. It hasn't done a thing for either!
I'm wondering if everytime I cycle, my problem will get worse. Do you or anyone have an opinion on this thought?
GYMBRAT
30-11-2009, 07:17 PM
37 yrs old here, and putting myself on HRT after this cycle is up. The feeling of well being while on as opposed to off supersedes the "off" ;)
37 yrs old here, and putting myself on HRT after this cycle is up. The feeling of well being while on as opposed to off supersedes the "off" ;)
Actually Bro, I've decided the same thing. I'm 44 and I like feeling like I'm 21. It's better to live than simply exist. If it shortens my time (which I highly doubt) it's worth my run being that much better. I'm thinking 200 test-e a week. You?
MikeyFXD35
01-12-2009, 01:33 PM
TRT is the way to go. It will make you feel like a new man.
RagingRandy
01-12-2009, 01:41 PM
Actually Bro, I've decided the same thing. I'm 44 and I like feeling like I'm 21. It's better to live than simply exist. If it shortens my time (which I highly doubt) it's worth my run being that much better. I'm thinking 200 test-e a week. You?
I pin E3D regardless of how much I am using. My base is 125mg per shot and I adjust up from there depending on my goals.
I've been taking testim 50mg test per day to help with some ED problems as well. It hasn't done a thing for either!
I'm wondering if everytime I cycle, my problem will get worse. Do you or anyone have an opinion on this thought?
My ED problems went away on 7.5g of Androgel, but it makes me feel horrible!
I bumped it up to 10g / day and that just makes my prostate hurt.
Wondering if HCG will help; as I felt great the first two weeks of androgel, or if I should just convince my doctor for IM injections.
Although, it seems everyone is injecting more than they are prescribed.
Good for those with Canadian sources, not so good for people who have to order international.
RagingRandy
02-12-2009, 11:28 AM
^^^^ IM is the only way to go. A standard HRT dose of 100mg\week will help in a big way. You can tell the doc you can no longer afford the gel. The injections are much cheaper.
Although, it seems everyone is injecting more than they are prescribed. Good for those with Canadian sources, not so good for people who have to order international.
You need to polish that up a bit. It's pretty transparent. :)
^^^^ IM is the only way to go. A standard HRT dose of 100mg\week will help in a big way. You can tell the doc you can no longer afford the gel. The injections are much cheaper.
I will try for the IM, but all I pay is $25 per year for the health plan I am on, so I will need a better excuse.
100mg of Test cyp?
You need to polish that up a bit. It's pretty transparent. :)
Didn't really mean it that way :)
I just speak the way it is...
GYMBRAT
02-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Actually Bro, I've decided the same thing. I'm 44 and I like feeling like I'm 21. It's better to live than simply exist. If it shortens my time (which I highly doubt) it's worth my run being that much better. I'm thinking 200 test-e a week. You?
150-250 ish but i'll play it by ear ;)
Me too PDH!
I don't think Test will lower life...unless it accelerates prostate cancer growth.
I don't think it will either Bro. I may go on proscar to ensure I can piss. I can't write my name in the snow anymore, so it doesn't need to be getting any worse. Ha! :)
GYMBRAT
02-12-2009, 08:29 PM
test is best ;).....but so is tren lol
GYMBRAT
02-12-2009, 08:51 PM
love to hear more^
Anyone know of a good, easy going, endocrinologist in the Ottawa area?
My doctor doesn't know sh*t about HRT, won't even prescribe HCG to go with the androgel he has me on, but has no problem giving me all the androgel I want...
Thanks
It's always good to have a clinic that specializes in this area. Atleast You have a source already. Look it up on google. Mainstream docs have no experience in this...you need a specialist.
At least he has you on androgel...take 8 squirts a day...apply to thin skin area only....
inner thighs are good.....under forearms...abdomen is ok.
this is going to cost you a fortune though.
No cost to me...excellent health plan through work.
I think hcg will really help me out, as I was feeling great on 5g/day of androgel for weeks 1-2.
Weeks 3-4 feel much worse than before, even on 7.5g/day.
(10g makes my prostate hurt)
Think I am shut down, and hopefully the hcg would bring me back up, so I can be where i was weeks 1-2.
Not sure about the hcg I can get though....
http://www.canadabodybuilding.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3719
Anyone have experience with androgel and hcg?
neutronmtl
07-12-2009, 02:24 PM
testosterone in hrt doses some times does not increase libido.trust me i did lot in this section,problem some times come from e2 and u say you control your e2 levels then there is only one problem left.in canada trt is difficult but in europe it is diffrent, ihad a doctor in europe he was hormone pro and he used to tell the libido of some men comes from semen production which is same for me,if i have semen produced i have high libido through lot of scientific studies i have seen same results.
so injections are the best every 2 weeks 250 mg is great and also soon long acting nebido which is 1000 mg test undo every 3 monthes,u should not worry about injections,add some zinc 25 to 50 mg or add some maca powder it increase libido with test up to 300% also adding hcg helps but everyday injecting someth9ing gives me a feeling we guys are sick ,we are not only problem our body is not able to produce certain amount test,this is it .adding second product is not for me,i rather add some natural solutions like maca and zinc.maca is amazing it has all the natural vitamins and amino acids that reproductive system needs,i even used maca as a bridge several times.
testosterone in hrt doses some times does not increase libido.trust me i did lot in this section,problem some times come from e2 and u say you control your e2 levels then there is only one problem left.in canada trt is difficult but in europe it is diffrent, ihad a doctor in europe he was hormone pro and he used to tell the libido of some men comes from semen production which is same for me,if i have semen produced i have high libido through lot of scientific studies i have seen same results.
so injections are the best every 2 weeks 250 mg is great and also soon long acting nebido which is 1000 mg test undo every 3 monthes,u should not worry about injections,add some zinc 25 to 50 mg or add some maca powder it increase libido with test up to 300% also adding hcg helps but everyday injecting someth9ing gives me a feeling we guys are sick ,we are not only problem our body is not able to produce certain amount test,this is it .adding second product is not for me,i rather add some natural solutions like maca and zinc.maca is amazing it has all the natural vitamins and amino acids that reproductive system needs,i even used maca as a bridge several times.
Maca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maca
faller
08-12-2009, 12:40 AM
testosterone in hrt doses some times does not increase libido.trust me i did lot in this section,problem some times come from e2 and u say you control your e2 levels then there is only one problem left.in canada trt is difficult but in europe it is diffrent, ihad a doctor in europe he was hormone pro and he used to tell the libido of some men comes from semen production which is same for me,if i have semen produced i have high libido through lot of scientific studies i have seen same results.
so injections are the best every 2 weeks 250 mg is great and also soon long acting nebido which is 1000 mg test undo every 3 monthes,u should not worry about injections,add some zinc 25 to 50 mg or add some maca powder it increase libido with test up to 300% also adding hcg helps but everyday injecting someth9ing gives me a feeling we guys are sick ,we are not only problem our body is not able to produce certain amount test,this is it .adding second product is not for me,i rather add some natural solutions like maca and zinc.maca is amazing it has all the natural vitamins and amino acids that reproductive system needs,i even used maca as a bridge several times.
Wander if that is partly the reason for Proviron working so well for the libido?
Need advice.
Stopping androgel after ~6weeks on.
Feel absolutely horrible on it!
PCT
Research chems - Clomid
Canadian APO tamox tabs
Best to do 50,50,25,25 clomid
or
25,25,25,25 clomid and
20,20,0,0 Nolva?
MikeyFXD35
10-12-2009, 06:06 PM
if you are on HRT you don't need PCT. Try and get a script for injectable Test e
And that your gf is a nurse.
Would love to get a script for test e, but my doctor is off until after new years, and getting an appointment to see an endocrinologist would probably take a few months.
My test numbers weren't all that bad before. (Listed on the first page)
I was having ED issues, which the gel has fixed, but my prostate is killing me now!
Took 0.5mg of anastrozole two days ago, which seemed to help alittle.
I would have been on the gel for 5 weeks as of this upcoming Sunday.
Just not sure how great of a pct i should take; as I'm not sure if the gel has completely shut me down, in that little amount of time.
As an alternative to hrt, I read a study over at mind and muscle, and they were low dosing clomid (25mg ed) for up to 18 months.
Test numbers doubled, improvement with libido, energy etc.
May give that a shot.
Just not sure if 50,50,25,25 clomid will cut it for pct?
Testiclops
15-12-2009, 07:05 PM
Total Testosterone – 342 ng/dL (400-1200)
Ratio T/SHBG – 0.5 (0.7-1.0)
SHBG – 25 nmol/L (15-50)
LH – 3.4 U/L (1.0-8.4)
FSH – 4.7 U/L (1.0-10.5)
As you can see my free test is below normal, and total test is quite low also.
Had difficulties recovering from workouts
Erections weren’t quite as full as they used to be, and had trouble maintaining.
Lots of desire though, like 1-3 times per day.
Felt depressed for a couples days, every 4-5 weeks.
My doctor is old ~80
Doesn’t know much about TRT.
Gave me a box of androgel, which I tried 5g per day.
For two weeks, I felt way better. Happier, more energy, ED went away, actually woke up with morning wood!
Then it hit me, felt horrible, brain fog, tired, have trouble getting an erection (way worse than ever before, and seem to be losing the desire for sex)
I upped my dose to 10g per day.
Feel better, but still having ED.
Tried some Formestane incase of high E2 levels.
Helped alittle.
I’m thinking of backing out, using clomid 50,50,25,25 for PCT and maybe some natural test booster for libido.
I’ve only been on androgel for less than 3 weeks
May be able to talk my doctor into IM injections.
Not sure if I want to take this route though?
Is it worth it?
I may never have this chance again, as my doctor is retiring soon, and most doctors don’t have an open mind about things like this.
I’ll be 33 soon
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
You most like felt initial relief of symptoms because your HPTA wasn't suppressed yet AND you were simultaneously getting the benefits of the androgel. Once HPTA suppression kicked in, your T probably took a nose dive.
Testiclops
15-12-2009, 08:45 PM
Meaning?
His body was still producing testosterone naturally for the first few weeks. So when you add the naturally produced testosterone to the testosterone from the androgel, that probably increased T levels high enough to make a clinical difference in his symptoms. However, eventually natural testosterone production was suppressed and T levels dropped (quite possibly below their original levels pre-androgel, although a worsening of symptoms could also be due to higher E2 levels).
Testiclops
15-12-2009, 08:53 PM
Also, transdermal delivery generally causes higher E2 and DHT levels. DHT is beneficial for those experiencing erectile dysfunction, so if levels are too low, this may even be beneficial, in a sense.
clicker666
17-12-2009, 09:22 AM
I've got to find a better doc for this. I started on 2.5 mg gel, then went to 5 mg, which seemed to help. I got spontaneous wood and started thinking about sex again. About 6 months into it I noticed my hair seemed to be thinner up front and I had nipples. (My nipples are usually innies lol, almost flat.) I talked to my doc in Oct and he said to go off of it for a month then use the pump, one pump a day. Said there was nothing to deal with side effects, and when I suggested anti-estrogenics, he said they were only useful in breast cancer and too expensive.
I stayed off for two weeks, started falling asleep around 7 at night and lost interest in everything again. Went back on, but one pump seems to be crap. Doctor's Nova Scotia says I should ask him to see an endo, but that's a year to wait. So, if anyone knows of a doctor in HRM that knows about TRT (lol) I'd appreciate a name.
I've got to find a better doc for this. I started on 2.5 mg gel, then went to 5 mg, which seemed to help. I got spontaneous wood and started thinking about sex again. About 6 months into it I noticed my hair seemed to be thinner up front and I had nipples. (My nipples are usually innies lol, almost flat.) I talked to my doc in Oct and he said to go off of it for a month then use the pump, one pump a day. Said there was nothing to deal with side effects, and when I suggested anti-estrogenics, he said they were only useful in breast cancer and too expensive.
I stayed off for two weeks, started falling asleep around 7 at night and lost interest in everything again. Went back on, but one pump seems to be crap. Doctor's Nova Scotia says I should ask him to see an endo, but that's a year to wait. So, if anyone knows of a doctor in HRM that knows about TRT (lol) I'd appreciate a name.
My experience with androgel was not good!
First two weeks were great! Felt great, awesome sex drive
Then I started feeling horrible, no matter how much I was using.
I went up to 10g per day.
My prostate started hurting pretty bad, and I felt pretty emotional some days.
I started taking 0.5mg anastrozole EOD, and felt better.
I'm done with androgel.
Total was 5 weeks on.
On Clomid pct now, and I feel way better!
From what I hear, IM injections are the way to go...
big_luse
17-12-2009, 06:24 PM
Go with the shots 100-150mg a week - use the Androgel when you old and tired of poking yourself. By that time they probably have mastered SARMs and/or trandermals and youll be able to switch without issue. Also, if you want ancillaries like a-dex or HCG just hit up a TRT clinic if you can afford it or go UG. Most canadian doctors are a step behind when comapred to the americans in terms of supplying a well-rounded TRT regimen.
clicker666
18-12-2009, 08:56 AM
My experience with androgel was not good!
First two weeks were great! Felt great, awesome sex drive
Then I started feeling horrible, no matter how much I was using.
I went up to 10g per day.
My prostate started hurting pretty bad, and I felt pretty emotional some days.
I started taking 0.5mg anastrozole EOD, and felt better.
I'm done with androgel.
Total was 5 weeks on.
On Clomid pct now, and I feel way better!
From what I hear, IM injections are the way to go...
I think the Arimidex probably makes more sense too, but he refuses, thinks it's for breast cancer only. I do get a bit emo lol, but nothing earthshattering. I have a feeling (but have not researched) that being fat for a long time increases your estrogen or something lol.
powder925
21-12-2009, 06:49 PM
i first tried andriol which didnt do shit then I switch to andro gel @ 5gms....felt good for the first 2 weeks then started to feel shitty again....got blood work done and was lower then when I started so doc upped my dose to 7.5gs and i felt good on that for awhile....then after a few weeks my body just stopped absorbing it so now I am finally on Im injections of test cyp and and feeling great.....not sure what my levels are yet.
I wouldnt go to an Endo if what you are looking for is HRT because if you are only at the low end of the scale you wont get shit......stick with your GP and try to collect as much info as you can on the subject so you can bring it to him to show him some of the stuff you have learned....if your lucky....he might be more open to trying something new
Anyone here experience vision problems using clomid?
I'm a week and a half into 50mg per day, and my eye sight is going for a sh*t!
Getting blurry in my right eye
From what I read, these sides are temporary.
Just curious as to anyone else's experience.
If one was to have vision problems with clomid, is it a given that they would most likely have issue's with Nolva also?
I read that the vision problems with Nolva are usually permanent?
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