Encourage suicide on internet will soon be criminal in Canada

[MuSuLPhReAk]

OTTAWA — A motion that overwhelmingly passed in the House of Commons Wednesday is the first step toward a bill seeking to clarify in the Criminal Code that helping or encouraging anyone over the Internet to commit suicide is illegal.

The motion passed by a 230-0 margin.

Harold Albrecht, a Conservative MP from Ontario who put it forward, said he was “pleasantly surprised” it received so much support.

“We’re trying to give a clear message to anyone who might presume to be able to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and carry out their devious schemes,” he said following the vote. “We’re trying to put mechanisms into the Criminal Code that do two things — be a clear deterrent message to anyone considering those actions and second, if they chose to ignore the warnings of the Criminal Code when its amended, they will face the consequences.”

Currently, section 241 of the Criminal Code states anyone who “counsels a person to commit suicide, or aids and abets a person to commit suicide, whether suicide ensues or not, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to” as much as 14 years in jail. It does not provide specifics about what “aiding or abetting” encompasses. Albrecht wants the section revised to reflect technological advances.

The motion is not legally binding, but Albrecht said he’ll be able to use it as he works with the federal justice department in the next few months on a future bill.

The motion was drafted in response to the high-profile death of Ottawa student Nadia Kajouji nearly two years ago, which still has not resulted in any criminal charges.

Following the Carleton University student’s death, investigators discovered Kajouji had entered into a suicide pact with a middle-aged American man she befriended online. The Minnesota man, identified as William Melchert-Dinkel, 47 and a father of two, never completed his end of the pact.

Kajouji jumped off an Ottawa bridge into the Rideau River in March 2008.

Criminal charges in the U.S. and Canada were never filed against Melchert-Dinkel, even though he had posed as a 28-year-old woman named “Cami” and coaxed the first-year student to take her own life.

Melchert-Dinkel had repeatedly tried to persuade Kajouji to kill herself on a webcam so he could watch.

Investigators said they couldn’t lay charges because they did not believe the online relationship was a significant factor in Kajouji’s death.

Kajouji’s brother Marc and father Mohamed were both in Ottawa Wednesday to see the motion pass.

“This motion is a lot of things,” said Marc. “This will represent that she (Kajouji) can still help in a positive way.”

He said his family still deals with his sister’s death everyday, especially his father, who had come to Ottawa on numerous occasions to look for her when she was first reported missing.

“It was important for us just to be here. It’s going to be a special day in her name. Every time my dad was here, it was hard for him,” he said. “This will be a positive thing for Nadia. One of the good memories he’ll have of her in Ottawa.”

[baza]

Wow that story in there is crazy. If that was my brother or sister, I would be paying that guy a visit.

[_Ragnar_]

To be completely honest I thought that this would already be illegal.

[Gilmour]

Hey cheesesteak! You out there?

[LonelyBedouin]

To be completely honest I thought that this would already be illegal.

Yea same, whats the difference between someone using a gun and someone using words to kill another person...

Just like the whole CandyKid (or whatever his name was on BB.com) Who overdosed on web cam while everyone told him to do it...

[CanadianIron]

Hey cheesesteak! You out there?

You should kill yourself.

[CanadianIron]

To be completely honest I thought that this would already be illegal.

You would think it would fall under some other law... they're probably just outlining it so they can pursue people over the internet and access their information much easier...

[waderow]

just more bullshit rules to blame everyone except the person and the persons family. It has to be someones fault right? Little johnny killed himself... it cant be the ****ed up childhood and the ****ed up parents and the ****ed up system? nope.. its the nameless faceless dude on the internet who watches it happen with glee.

bullshit... and cheese should off himself

[faller]

Just another nail in the coffin to freedom.

[_Ragnar_]

just more bullshit rules to blame everyone except the person and the persons family. It has to be someones fault right? Little johnny killed himself... it cant be the ****ed up childhood and the ****ed up parents and the ****ed up system? nope.. its the nameless faceless dude on the internet who watches it happen with glee.

bullshit... and cheese should off himself

No one is saying that the guy on the internet put the idea in their head. As someone who struggled with this issue in my teens the last thing I would have needed was someone online telling me to do it.

[HoliTheCat]

Hmmm...pretty controversial stuff here, and it could get into a HUGE heated debate as I can see this being argued very passionately.

Maybe it is something that my mind doesn't full grasp or comprehend...and I apologize if this offends anyone as it isn't my intention at all.

But...if someone wants to kill themselves...is it not their right to do so? Free will? Doesn't it go back to the idea of asking to be born? No one asks...and if an individual is that curious, or dislikes life that much, is it really our place to tell that individual NOT to stop living?

I understand that families, friends, etc become hurt, miss the person when they are gone, etc, etc...but is that not a slightly selfish reason to not want someone else to die? Because WE will be upset/sad/emotional?

Again, just throwing it out, if this is stepping over the line, please mods delete, etc. I now this subject can be touchy.

[waderow]

No one is saying that the guy on the internet put the idea in their head. As someone who struggled with this issue in my teens the last thing I would have needed was someone online telling me to do it.
ever hear the expression... if someone told you to jump off a bridge would ya?

Words will now be putting people in jail.

[waderow]

Hmmm...pretty controversial stuff here, and it could get into a HUGE heated debate as I can see this being argued very passionately.

Maybe it is something that my mind doesn't full grasp or comprehend...and I apologize if this offends anyone as it isn't my intention at all.

But...if someone wants to kill themselves...is it not their right to do so? Free will? Doesn't it go back to the idea of asking to be born? No one asks...and if an individual is that curious, or dislikes life that much, is it really our place to tell that individual NOT to stop living?

I understand that families, friends, etc become hurt, miss the person when they are gone, etc, etc...but is that not a slightly selfish reason to not want someone else to die? Because WE will be upset/sad/emotional?

Again, just throwing it out, if this is stepping over the line, please mods delete, etc. I now this subject can be touchy.


and thats all this is.... a knee jerk, emotional law with no merit.

If my kid killed himself on the internet with people cheering, I would blame myself.

[HoliTheCat]

ever hear the expression... if someone told you to jump off a bridge would ya?

Words will now be putting people in jail.

This is ****ed up...and true.

[waderow]

next thing you know, we will be having "thought crimes"

[dainbramaged]

“We’re trying to give a clear message to anyone who might presume to be able to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and carry out their devious schemes,”

Is it just me, or does anyone else picture an evil Saturday morning cartoon character when reading someone say "carry out their devious schemes"?

MUWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Come my lackeys, let us go out and carry out our devious schemes of world domination! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Shortdave]

“We’re trying to give a clear message to anyone who might presume to be able to hide behind the anonymity of the Internet and carry out their devious schemes,”

Is it just me, or does anyone else picture an evil Saturday morning cartoon character when reading someone say "carry out their devious schemes"?

MUWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Come my lackeys, let us go out and carry out our devious schemes of world domination! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

.

[daande]

I dunno if someone is going to be convinced to kill themselves they shouldn't live anyways. You are a complete moron if someone can convince you to kill yourself especially if its someone on the internet lol. There are to many laws out there protecting against natural selection in my opinion.

[PdH]

The reality is we already have people being incarcerated for simply speaking words and have for a long time. Conspiracy is a prime example. In regard to the suicide issue, from a strictly legal point of view, it is not illegal to commit suicide, but counselling is. The rationale behind this is that life is sacred, and the individual considering suicide may be helped with proper intervention. Those who counsel to commit may be intervening at a crisis point, and were it not for their actions, the person might not have offed themselves, and gone on to live a happy, productive life.

[Talo]

Hey cheesesteak! You out there?


Just look at who's online and he's still here , searching away.

[waderow]

The reality is we already have people being incarcerated for simply speaking words and have for a long time. Conspiracy is a prime example. In regard to the suicide issue, from a strictly legal point of view, it is not illegal to commit suicide, but counselling is. The rationale behind this is that life is sacred, and the individual considering suicide may be helped with proper intervention. Those who counsel to commit may be intervening at a crisis point, and were it not for their actions, the person might not have offed themselves, and gone on to live a happy, productive life.

conspiracy, in organizing a crime to be committed. Example: Me contacting the HA to kill a business partner of mine, or break a guys legs who owes me money.

internet chat: example: when chatting with cheesesteak someone types: "kill yourself goof".

do you think we are even in the same ball park here?

[Chunk]

a lot of the time people who commit suicide aren't in a proper state of mind or have serious mental health issues. i can think of probably 5 people in my life who've either committed suicide or tried to...so this is a pretty touchy subject for me.

the selfishness does not come from those who wish someone hadn't killed themselves, it comes from the person who had no regard for their entire family, friends, and anyone who was a part of their life. Think of it in terms of you losing your child to suicide because someone told them to do it...

someone with manic depression or bipolar disorder can be easily swayed to think a certain way. sometimes they do it to fit in, sometimes they hear only what they want to hear, and sometimes it just suits the person to be agreed with. if someone told a manic depressive they were in love with him/her and that if they killed themselves together they'd be together in spirit forever...that could easily lead to assisted suicide, and i think such a thing should be punishable by law. Using CS as an example, this guy's picture posting and 5 years of board jumping was an obvious need for attention and want to fit in with a bodybuilding crowd. You big bastards made him feel part of a family, and accepted. He was able to finally fit in somewhere without having to be ashamed of himself on the outside. There is a very good chance he's got some kind of mental problem and doesn't know it...I think the suicide stuff went way out of line...I'm not in love with the guy, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Seriously think of how you would feel if you had a part in someone taking their own life...think of what you'd have helped do to his family...that's a tough thing to live with.

i think it's easy to say the whole "if he jumped off a bridge, would you?" thing when you don't have to live life worrying about a family member with a mental disability. when you have the cops tell your family not to expect to find another family member alive during a mental episode...and you know how emotional and easily persuaded someone mentally ill is, you may understand better.

i would argue that probably 85% of people who attempt/commit suicide regret the decision after it's too late.

you'll have to forgive me, guys...i'm not very good at explaining my opinions clearly sometimes, but i thought i'd attempt to chime in.

[waderow]

if your child is that ****ed up, then they shouldnt be:
1: on the internet unsupervised filming them hang themselves for the /b/tards
2: un-medicated

if you dont know they are that ****ed up, then you probably have failed as a parent, and should blame yourself, not an anonymous internet post

[faller]

The real issue here is not the actual bill itself. The real issue is Gov. is up against something they don't know how to address. It is in Gov. nature to control, yet here is the internet that up to now has been uncontrolable. They can't arbitrarly take control, the fall out would be suicide for any governing body. But they can piece meal it one step at a time.

Harold Albrecht will work on the next bill and when that passes he will be satisfied and another will take up the torch and take it to the next level. And they will succeed in the moral name of public safty/good.

[Chunk]

the medication thing is wrong, sorry...i can't agree to that!

there are probably tens of thousands (if not hundreds) of undiagnosed mentally unstable people in north america alone. it's not always the parent's fault, a lot of times doctors misdiagnose. i'm not saying a doctor should be held responsible, just saying that they're wrong sometimes.

as for the unsupervised thing, a grown adult would never let his family supervise his internet usage...there is only so much you can do as a parent to block who/what your child talks to or does on the internet. in your example, how is a parent supposed to know what's going on in their 14-50 year old's bedroom at all times??? a lot of times these acts are done when the person is alone so that no one can stop them.

not sure whether you have family with some sort of mental condition, but it really skews your view on things. i would more than likely have your way of thinking if I didn't have to worry about family every day.

[waderow]

well... some people you just cant save

[PdH]

conspiracy, in organizing a crime to be committed. Example: Me contacting the HA to kill a business partner of mine, or break a guys legs who owes me money.internet chat: example: when chatting with cheesesteak someone types: "kill yourself goof".do you think we are even in the same ball park here?

I'm just providing legal information, not my personal ideology or values regarding what should or should not be criminal. Parliament makes those decisions. Simply put, there are two components that must coincide for an act to be criminal. Mens rea and actus reas, or guilty mind and guilty act. You think about doing a crime, then act it out. Simply thinking about it is not a crime, the same as carrying out a criminal act without the ability to appreciate what you are doing is not a crime.

Conspiracy is thinking about doing a crime, then coming together with others to discuss it's fruition. Counselling suicide is thinking about telling the person to kill themselves, then actually counselling them to do it knowing that they are vulnerable and might actually carry it out. I don't see how it's any different than other criminal laws. For example, if you know someone has a heart condition, and you pull a prank that scares the **** out of them and they have a heart attack and die, you will be held liable for crim neg causing death. It's about what a reasonable person either knows, or should ought to know.

The legislation hasn't been drafted yet, but the word counselling will have to be defined regarding its meaning. I highly doubt simply telling someone to "go kill yourself goof" would fall within that definitional meaning.

[waderow]

The legislation hasn't been drafted yet, but the word counselling will have to be defined regarding its meaning. I highly doubt simply telling someone to "go kill yourself goof" would fall within that definitional meaning.

I hope not. Because if someone should go kill them self (cheese), I am going to tell them that they should

[Chunk]

this is true, but that shouldn't make it okay for someone to help convince an already unstable person into doing something so horrible.

i'm glad MP posted this, and i'm sure it's directly related to what went on here recently. making a joke is one thing, but i think it got way out of hand...and we're lucky to not see a certain someone's name in the obituary column. you guys can pretend to not care, but if you actually aided in taking someone away from their family...i find it hard to believe you could ever live that down.

[waderow]

this is true, but that shouldn't make it okay for someone to help convince an already unstable person into doing something so horrible.

i'm glad MP posted this, and i'm sure it's directly related to what went on here recently. making a joke is one thing, but i think it got way out of hand...and we're lucky to not see a certain someone's name in the obituary column. you guys can pretend to not care, but if you actually aided in taking someone away from their family...i find it hard to believe you could ever live that down.

see, bro.

About cheese... I honestly do not ****ing care one bit. His whole family could die in a trailer fire tomorrow, and I dont care. I wont be happy, sad, or anything... Perhaps mildly amused that Karma bit them in the ass.

I am more concerned about :
canadian troops in afganistan getting blown apart by roadside bombs
this poor random guy http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/2009/11/19/11813941.html
when a college girl gets raped and killed

that shit is tragic. cheese killing himself, or dieing in a fire is doing the country a favour

[natenator]

see, bro.

About cheese... I honestly do not ****ing care one bit. His whole family could die in a trailer fire tomorrow, and I dont care. I wont be happy, sad, or anything... Perhaps mildly amused that Karma bit them in the ass.

I am more concerned about :
canadian troops in afganistan getting blown apart by roadside bombs
this poor random guy http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/2009/11/19/11813941.html
when a college girl gets raped and killed

that shit is tragic. cheese killing himself, or dieing in a fire is doing the country a favour
I agree with this.

[gicantor]

see, bro.

About cheese... I honestly do not ****ing care one bit. His whole family could die in a trailer fire tomorrow, and I dont care. I wont be happy, sad, or anything... Perhaps mildly amused that Karma bit them in the ass.

I am more concerned about :
canadian troops in afganistan getting blown apart by roadside bombs
this poor random guy http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/2009/11/19/11813941.html
when a college girl gets raped and killed

that shit is tragic. cheese killing himself, or dieing in a fire is doing the country a favour

^^^ if I could green you sir, I would

[Bowlcut]

Good to know as the national debt hits $500 billion. Glad to see these guys do something useful :rolleyes:

[waderow]

****ing government...

at least they are scrapping the gun registry

[Durk]

see, bro.

About cheese... I honestly do not ****ing care one bit. His whole family could die in a trailer fire tomorrow, and I dont care. I wont be happy, sad, or anything... Perhaps mildly amused that Karma bit them in the ass.

I am more concerned about :
canadian troops in afganistan getting blown apart by roadside bombs
this poor random guy http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/2009/11/19/11813941.html
when a college girl gets raped and killed

that shit is tragic. cheese killing himself, or dieing in a fire is doing the country a favour


Not to be beating a dead horse, but the whole product of society thing can only be taken so far with cheese, and I am glad he gave the sups back. I am hoping that it was for more than the fact that a bunch of members here are just a short drive from his town and know exactly what he looks like lol.

If not then I completely agree with you.

I grew up with a friend that makes Cheeses problems look like nothing. Not only was he raised by people on welfare. He was abused as a kid in ways that I would have a hard time living with if I were in his shoes. On top of that at 15 he developed a manic depressive disorder so sever he started to develope full out visual halucinations. In spite of this he has always worked. If he were to get laid off due to an outburst concerning his disability. He wouldnt be on EI very long before finding a new job. He hates not making his own money. He has finally gotten on the right mix of meds and I cant remember a time when he was so level headed. He is legitamitely laid off from a factory that was shut down right now, but he is using his disability funds to start trade school soon and I couldnt be prouder.

This is an example of someone that I dont mind using the system because he actually uses it to return to being a productive member of society.

[JacktheThriller]

this is dumb! all you would have to prove is reasonable doubt, someone could have been using my profile, i log on and forgot to log off, not secretive of my passwords blah blah blah

[PdH]

this is dumb! all you would have to prove is reasonable doubt, someone could have been using my profile, i log on and forgot to log off, not secretive of my passwords blah blah blah

Really?

[waderow]

Really?

really