Most Effective Routines for Intermediate Lifters?

[tiramisu]

Hey guys,

Getting from Novice to Intermediate was very exciting. I put on plenty of strength and plenty of muscle pretty darn quickly using Rippetoe's Starting Strength routine and a gallon of milk a day for about 18 months.

Once I got to an intermediate strength level the SS routine had me overtraining and resetting and not making much progress.

I switched to DC in August (4 months) and have seen consistent gains in all my lifts (I generally beat the log book in my lifts either the first or second try) BUT I'm told this is really an Advanced Program rather than an Intermediate Program.

Yesterday, I spotted a young fellow benching 420 and it depressed me.

I'm wondering if I'm leaving too much gas in the tank and could improve faster?

Possibilities I'm aware of...

Madcow/Bill Starr Intermediate 5x5
Pendlay(?) Texas Method
Wendler's 5/3/1

So.... What are the best loved and most effective Intermediate Lifting programs out there?

[l6873]

Who cares if DC is supposed to be for 'advanced' lifters? If you're making good progress stick with it.

[Danger]

^^^
If its working stick with it, no reason to change something thats still working, if your worried about not improving fast enough just up the intensity of your current workouts after all the whole DC concept is about intensity.

[Praetorian]

The problem with DC training for beginners or intermediate lifters is that most have not developed the intensity level to actually incorporate and stimulate enough fibres for growth with the associated volume. Yes youll make gains just like any program...its called the training effect. However there is a huge difference between that and making progressive gains in strength and size over the long term to where you actually are hitting some decent numbers ie 405 bench, 500 squat etc. I also dont like prefab routines much as people tend to rely on the routine and forget about the actual work involved. Most intermediate lifters require more volume to achieve the amount of equivalent intensity compared to DC. The whole HIT training idea is great but it has also lead to lazy lifters...1 working set to failure...done...sometimes becomes a very lazy workout because the individual is nowhere near the level of intensity required. The main idea to keep in mind is progressive overload...you need to consistently be pushing the strength barrier. The simplest idea has been misconstrued to become extremely complex when it comes to getting big....train with very heavy weights, eat a tonne of food, get adequate rest, and grow...its not rocket science...if you are not growing you are NOT doing one or more of these things.
P

[Iwant2Grow]

I can't really speak to the effectiveness of all the programs out there
but i can say what has worked wonders for me

try this for 6 weeks and im sure you will be stronger in all of your core lifts

http://www.wackyhq.com/madcow5x5/geocities/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm

[Danger]

IMO the best part of the DC system is the LOGBOOK, if you log every workout and beat the long book every week you cant really help but "mak[e] progressive gains in strength and size over the long term."

I dont train DC but I do have every workout i've ever done written down, I cant belive people just goto the gym and "workout" if you have serious goals 2-3min of scribbling in a notebook is nothing compared to squating 495 and its a MUCH better investment than any supplement!

[devo09]

The other problem with DC is that it's only utilizing one form of overload (Intensity) and not volume and frequency.
I think a power/hypertrophy split would be an excellent choice for the OP

[faller]

Madcow Intermediate 5x5
Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Barbell Row or Powerclean – 5 sets of 5
Weighted hyperextensions - 2 sets
Weighted sit-ups - 4 sets

On Monday, the weight for each lift is increased on each set of 5, from a light warm-up to an all out set of 5. For squats, something like 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5, 315x5. The weight should be increased evenly from your first to last set. Your fifth set equals the triple from the previous Friday's workout.

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Incline Bench or Standing Press – 4 sets of 5
Deadlift – 4 sets of 5
Sit-ups - 3 sets

On light day, Squat the first 3 sets of 5 just as you did on Monday, and then do a fourth set of 5 with the weight used on the third set. An extra fifth set at this same weight can be added. Incline bench/Standing Press and deadlifts are ramped up to a top set of five.

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8
Barbell Row or Powerclean– 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8 for rows
Weighted Dips - 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps Extension and Biceps Curl - 3 sets of 8 each

On Friday, the first four sets are the same as they were on Monday. The fifth set, done for three reps, should be a jump of about 2.5% over what you did for your fifth set on Monday. As you become more experienced with the system, you can experiment with the weight you use on this triple. This should NOT be a PR triple attempt every week. In fact, the goal is to come back the following Monday and get the same weight for 5 reps that you got for 3 reps the Friday before. To avoid missing reps, pick weights carefully. Take it easy the first few weeks, and don’t over do it. In fact if you've tested/already know your 5 rep maxes you shouldn't be using that weight until the 4th week. After the big triple, drop back to the weight you used for your 3rd set and try to get eight reps.

[Iwant2Grow]

Madcow Intermediate 5x5
Monday – Heavy Day
Squat – 5 sets of 5
Bench – 5 sets of 5
Barbell Row or Powerclean – 5 sets of 5
Weighted hyperextensions - 2 sets
Weighted sit-ups - 4 sets

On Monday, the weight for each lift is increased on each set of 5, from a light warm-up to an all out set of 5. For squats, something like 135x5, 185x5, 225x5, 275x5, 315x5. The weight should be increased evenly from your first to last set. Your fifth set equals the triple from the previous Friday's workout.

Wednesday – Light Day
Squat – 4 sets of 5
Incline Bench or Standing Press – 4 sets of 5
Deadlift – 4 sets of 5
Sit-ups - 3 sets

On light day, Squat the first 3 sets of 5 just as you did on Monday, and then do a fourth set of 5 with the weight used on the third set. An extra fifth set at this same weight can be added. Incline bench/Standing Press and deadlifts are ramped up to a top set of five.

Friday - Medium
Squat – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8
Bench – 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8
Barbell Row or Powerclean– 4 sets of 5, 1 triple, 1 set of 8 for rows
Weighted Dips - 3 sets of 5-8
Triceps Extension and Biceps Curl - 3 sets of 8 each

On Friday, the first four sets are the same as they were on Monday. The fifth set, done for three reps, should be a jump of about 2.5% over what you did for your fifth set on Monday. As you become more experienced with the system, you can experiment with the weight you use on this triple. This should NOT be a PR triple attempt every week. In fact, the goal is to come back the following Monday and get the same weight for 5 reps that you got for 3 reps the Friday before. To avoid missing reps, pick weights carefully. Take it easy the first few weeks, and don’t over do it. In fact if you've tested/already know your 5 rep maxes you shouldn't be using that weight until the 4th week. After the big triple, drop back to the weight you used for your 3rd set and try to get eight reps.

Excellent program and if you follow the link i posted there a nice spread sheet that lays this all out for you and makes calculating your weekly progress really easy

[faller]

And one of my favorite's right here:

worldclassbodybuilding.com/forums/f209/cluster-training-43211

[Ritch]

Alot of volume in that madcow program. How long does it take you to get those 20 sets done? I don`t understand when people say the best thing about DC`ing is the log aspect. I mean you can log any programm...

[tex]

check out westside for skinny bastards.......

[Iwant2Grow]

Takes me about 45mins maybe a hr if im not busting my ass

The thing with a spread sheet/log book IMO is it insures you are heading in the right direction instead of just doing what feels right that day your making sure your progressing on your lifts as the logs don't lie

[Danger]

You should log EVERY program! Its not just a DC either, guys like Dorian Yates have been saying the samething for a long time.

[Ritch]

Takes me about 45mins maybe a hr if im not busting my ass

The thing with a spread sheet/log book IMO is it insures you are heading in the right direction instead of just doing what feels right that day your making sure your progressing on your lifts as the logs don't lie

so if it takes you an hour, you rest 1min between sets of a 5 rep max? I don`t see how that`s possible.

[Iwant2Grow]

so if it takes you an hour, you rest 1min between sets of a 5 rep max? I don`t see how that`s possible.

Every set is not your 5 rep max , if you read the program you will see that it progresses and after 4 weeks 1 set on Monday is at your 5 rep max then the following Friday you are doing a heavy triple . then after you have set a couple weeks working at your PR i reset the program and go again to achieve a new PR

fill out the spread sheet bro and take a look

[Ritch]

Every set is not your 5 rep max , if you read the program you will see that it progresses and after 4 weeks 1 set on Monday is at your 5 rep max then the following Friday you are doing a heavy triple . then after you have set a couple weeks working at your PR i reset the program and go again to achieve a new PR

fill out the spread sheet bro and take a look

Gotcha. I`m not saying it`s a bad program just in case anyone thought that... Was just trying to understand it better. Maybe I`ll take a look into it.

[Iwant2Grow]

Gotcha. I`m not saying it`s a bad program just in case anyone thought that... Was just trying to understand it better. Maybe I`ll take a look into it.

its all good bro , make sure you check out the spread sheet i just attached

makes it way easier to follow

[Ritch]

its all good bro , make sure you check out the spread sheet i just attached

makes it way easier to follow

Yeah, but for now I`m looking at the girl in your avatar who`s doing a nice spread on a different sheet...

[Iwant2Grow]

Shes looking at you ritch .

lolz

[tiramisu]

I just did a quick scan of my DC Log book from Aug-Nov (about 16 weeks)

A couple of interesting things.

-------------
A quick summary.

DC is essentially an A/B 3 times per week program (m,w,f) a1/b1/a2, b2/a3/b3

With 3 different exercises per bodypart in the rotation so that you are trying to beat the log book on any 1 exercise every 2 weeks.

I warm up with 12@40%, 8@60%, 5@80% then do DC rest pause which is essentially 3 sets to failure with 15 breaths in between (total reps tend to be 15-20 on a good day - i.e. 7/5/4, 8,4,4. I've been raising weight when my first working set hits 8 and my total reps are within the workout range. Legs and Deads get straight sets and I treat squats and deads as a strength exercise and generally go with 5's, 3's then 3 singles for max lifts with them.

My other back and leg exercises get a normal warmup and then a set of 8.
Legs get a back-off set of 20 (widow maker)

--------------------
... now the interesting things
Overall strength increases were very consistent and all pretty much PR's

Almost without exception my small compound lifts went up about 30 pounds.
My isolation exercises went up about 15 pounds
Deads, Squats and Bench about 50 pounds.

There were a couple of exercises where I had only 2 exercises instead of 3 but while there were more opportunities to raise the weight my strength didn't progress any faster.

My weight jumped about 10 pounds in the first 8 weeks and then stabilized in the second 8 weeks (225+/-3).

So...

1) I'm pretty sure I need to eat more if I'm going to break 230.
2) I don't think a faster weight progression is going to help.
3) I'm still not sure whether increased volume in the working sets would be beneficial or not.

- Strength increases are pretty darn good and still progressing but Mass increases have pretty much stalled. (Yes I know that the 10 pounds in 8 weeks wasn't all muscle but if I'm not gaining weight I'm pretty sure it's unlikely I'm gaining muscle).

thoughts?