This bothers me a lot

[Shortdave]

I am sick and tired of all the steroid advice and huge cycles being run by people who have the bodies of 14 year old skateboarders. What the eff? Learn how to eat and how to train properly. If you're under 5'8" and can't get to 200+ lbs naturally then you aren't trying hard enough. If you can't get to 10% bf naturally, fix your diet don't throw drugs at the problem. If you can't bench 300lbs naturally, give up. Seriously, if you can't do it then drugs are just going to be a crutch letting you limp along making crappy gains for the rest of your training life.

Introducing drugs to a person who can't achieve moderate goals naturally is like jumping in a car and having somebody push you 4 miles an hour, sure the potential to go fast is there, but you are doing everything wrong.

If somebody is going to run 2+ grams a week just to be an average sized weightlifter and can't hold onto that size without the drugs then something is very, very wrong.

Now I know I sound holier than thou, and I am not the biggest guy or the strongest guy, but I fully intend on being as big and as strong as I can before I get extra help.

[pseclint]

agreed!.... people give up too easy and lean on gear wayyyyy too much wayyyy to often.... you get better results off a good diet and program than you do with gear and a shitty diet and shitty program.....

[#8]

My impression on the "average" lifter using gear is that he or she does not want to work as hard as it takes to get what they seek. I have fully seen guys who just wanna get ripped for summer use sauce, nowhere near 2g a week, and they accomplish their mission. Massive cycles should be for super advanced BB only I agree, but using for the sake of using if someone wants to improve their appearance and not step on stage or bench 300lbs still has its place.

[Shortdave]

My impression on the "average" lifter using gear is that he or she does not want to work as hard as it takes to get what they seek. I have fully seen guys who just wanna get ripped for summer use sauce, nowhere near 2g a week, and they accomplish their mission. Massive cycles should be for super advanced BB only I agree, but using for the sake of using if someone wants to improve their appearance and not step on stage or bench 300lbs still has its place.


And that is why the public views steroids as "cheating" people are taking the easy way to reach perfectly attainable goals. I don't believe that steroids are cheating at anything, and I am not the dictator that gets to tell people when they start using drugs.... but this is what bothers me.

[#8]

The people that view steroids as cheating have obviously never used them, and know nothing of what they do to the body.

[drdnj]

And that is why the public views steroids as "cheating" people are taking the easy way to reach perfectly attainable goals. I don't believe that steroids are cheating at anything, and I am not the dictator that gets to tell people when they start using drugs.... but this is what bothers me.

X2

[Memo]

The people that view steroids as cheating have obviously never used them, and know nothing of what they do to the body.

This is right, also, the average joe will not get 50% of what a cycle could have been given to them. Its why you see a lot of dbol cycle, and after pct there is not much muscle left.

[gicantor]

I must say, this sounds like a swing at me

[Shortdave]

I must say, this sounds like a swing at me

Sorry dude, I definitely wasn't thinking of you when I wrote this, I was actually trying to keep it as non-specific as I could.

[dku]

TS, I see what you're saying. I'm surprised at some pictures that the person is taking steroids. It's hard to say though for sure that they're slacking - they may just have bad genetics or fake gear...

[Danger]

I hear highschool kids yapping about taking steroids in between sips of superpump 250 while they help eachother put their tapout shirts on lol.

Honestly if your dumb enough to load some drug you barely know anything about into a syringe and then inject yourself with it you kinda derserve whats coming, sometimes its best to just let nature weed out the stupid.

[kloan]

....If you're under 5'8" and can't get to 200+ lbs naturally then you aren't trying hard enough.

This comment baffles me. Show me one 5'6" person you know of that's 10%bf or less that weighs over 200lbs naturally.


.....I fully intend on being as big and as strong as I can before I get extra help.

Right on man, there's nothing wrong with that, but you'll be on a steady yo-yo just like so many others who wait until they reach their genetic potential. Some of us prefer to use the help to achieve solid gains without reaching or surpassing our genetic potential because those gains will be manageable. Try maintaining the mass you've gained from AAS when you're passed your genetic potential, and see how long it takes before you lose it.

I don't think it's fair to say that if someone can't bench 300lbs they should give up. How many years does it take to reach that strength? How many short guys do you know of that can do that naturally, that aren't powerlifters?

There's a big difference there too. It takes a ton of eating to reach that stage in strength/size, you've said it yourself.. and that's a powerlifter's lifestyle, not a bodybuilder's. Not everyone has the same goals in mind. Doesn't mean they haven't put 100% effort into their training, diet, etc. Some people like to take a break from the monotony of training naturally and blast for a few months. It's not cheating by any means. That same person still has to maintain their proper eating and training habits to achieve results. Sure they come quicker, but so what? Do you really think their efforts are worth less than yours because they're using steroids to help their body build muscle more efficiently?

Your comments sound very generalized and uninformed. People are different, have different goals, different bodies, genetics, lifting abilities, frames, etc etc etc. Forgive me if I sound defensive, but I can't help but feel that some of your comments were somewhat pointed in my direction, because it certainly sounds like you've described a few things about me.

[tiramisu]

Lee Priest :)

[Houstonbc]

look at the olympia under 202 contestants....id like to see someone get anywhere near their condition naturally

[tiramisu]

I am sick and tired of all the steroid advice and huge cycles being run by people who have the bodies of 14 year old skateboarders. What the eff? Learn how to eat and how to train properly. If you're under 5'8" and can't get to 200+ lbs naturally then you aren't trying hard enough. If you can't get to 10% bf naturally, fix your diet don't throw drugs at the problem. If you can't bench 300lbs naturally, give up. Seriously, if you can't do it then drugs are just going to be a crutch letting you limp along making crappy gains for the rest of your training life.

Introducing drugs to a person who can't achieve moderate goals naturally is like jumping in a car and having somebody push you 4 miles an hour, sure the potential to go fast is there, but you are doing everything wrong.

If somebody is going to run 2+ grams a week just to be an average sized weightlifter and can't hold onto that size without the drugs then something is very, very wrong.

Now I know I sound holier than thou, and I am not the biggest guy or the strongest guy, but I fully intend on being as big and as strong as I can before I get extra help.

Now that I'm finished having fun. If I remove the word (under), I agree.

At 5' 8" you should be able to hit 200 @ 10%. The boys in the 202 class are garden gnomes 5' 4" - 5' 6" and are 200 pounds @ 3%.

The key element here is that if you don't understand diet and training, aas are not going to result in keepable gains AND if you haven't actually turned this into a lifestyle then throwing drugs at yourself if really dumb. If you do understand diet and training you will have almost certainly hit 200 @ 5' 8" and have a 300 pound bench press.

I'd go further and say 1.5x bodyweight bench, 2x squat, 2.5x deadlift are about what I'd call intermediate strength levels that most school age boys ( 16-19) should be able to reach within their first 3 years of strength training.

In terms of weight gain the under weight boys should have little problem with a little under a pound a week which gives them the ability to put on 50 pounds a year. It's mind boggling really how big a young brute you can grow with the addition of adequate calories. This does not require aas it requires meat, potatoes and milk.

This is Mark Rippetoe territory and if you feel like I'm talking about you read and practice starting strength and drink your milk for a year and you will be amazed.

I'll point out that both my squat and dead currently fail this test (365, 435) @ 5' 9" 225 / 10% but I have hopes of getting a 2x squat before spring. Sadly I'm old and didn't know then what I know now.

[natenator]

Wow. Love the people taking offense at SD's comment thinking they are about themselves.

If you believe he is dissing you maybe he struck a cord because you probably realize yourself that you are lazy...

[GYMBRAT]

Wow. Love the people taking offense at SD's comment thinking they are about themselves.

If you believe he is dissing you maybe he struck a cord because you probably realize yourself that you are lazy...

I totally agree with Nate and SD!!

[BAM]

....................

[Durk]

I love you std

[kloan]

Wow. Love the people taking offense at SD's comment thinking they are about themselves.

If you believe he is dissing you maybe he struck a cord because you probably realize yourself that you are lazy...
Shit, ya got me. I'm such a lazy ****.. someone shove a tampon up my ass cuz I'm done.
I can't bench 300lbs, I weigh nowhere near 200lbs and I'm not 10% bf.. I should quit now.

If what SD posted has nothing to do me with or similar situations then by all means disregard my ranting.

[Shortdave]

Shit, ya got me. I'm such a lazy ****.. someone shove a tampon up my ass cuz I'm done.
I can't bench 300lbs, I weigh nowhere near 200lbs and I'm not 10% bf.. I should quit now.

If what SD posted has nothing to do me with or similar situations then by all means disregard my ranting.

Dude, it totally wasn't aimed at you, it wasn't aimed at anybody it is just what I have read and seen from many, many people.


Also, I didn't mean it as be 5'8" bench 300lbs be over 200lbs and be 10% bf or less, rereading it I can see how I came off that way but what I meant was that if your goal is to bulk up and you can't get to 200lbs naturally then you don't know how to eat and that should be learned before you juice.
Likewise if your goal is to get lean and you can't get reasonably lean(10%ish) on diet and exercise alone, then IMO you are doing something wrong.
Strength is the same deal, if a person has plateaued at relatively light weights then their training and diet needs to be looked at.

Disclaimer: when I use the word "you" I mean it in a general way, this isn't aimed at any specific person.

[CanadianIron]

You cant really use stats to determine whether or not someone is ready to take AAS....

Its all about progress.... i know guys who are taking stuff within their first 6 months of training, i'd tell anyone concidering it to train like a freak for ATLEAST 1.5-2 years before trying anything, because for me, i was making good gains for about 2 years til i started hitting walls. Its a time thing.. not a "who can lift 300lbs on the bench"... for some people they will never bench over 300 even on AAS, some people can bench 400+ without any gear at all.

[Memo]

I am 5'4, how much should I bench and weight?

[gsxr750]

I agree with Dave. Not necessarily this forum but I see people taking test/tren/eq/winny/dbol and they don't physically look like they have developed any natural base whatsoever.

[faller]

for some people they will never bench over 300 even on AAS

Thats me.. :ht I'd put up a vid but no one would believe it,lol.

SD is just generalizing and i agree with him 100%.

[AlladdinSane]

I am 5'4, how much should I bench and weight?

How much do you want to bench and weigh?

It's about goals first and foremost. The reality is that if you want something that is attainable without drugs but use drugs to get it, you'll have a hell of a time trying to get something that is only attainable with that assistance.

If you want to bench 315 and weigh in at 200 when you do it, then that is a completely reasonable goal (provided you're an average 5'4" man) to have drug-free. If you want to bench 600 @ 260 you're gonna need the gear, but it doesn't mean you start using when you can only bench 225 @ 160. That'd be silly.

I'm in SD's camp, btw, lol (no kidding, eh?). Seeing dudes prattle on about how their 5th BIG cycle will push their 6' tall physique over the 215lb mark and give them the "ever elusive 3 plate bench" makes me ill. Or the guy that never talks about much else than cycles and drug plans and PCT finally posting a pic of himself with the "My chest won't grow" problem and seeing that his tiny chest matches the rest of his 165lb build. Wtf?

[CanadianIron]

I am 5'4, how much should I bench and weight?

Are you being sarcastic?

Post your height and weight for the last 4 years on 3 months intervals and we might be able to help...

Heres another way to put it, if you arent occationally grunting, yelping or groaning in the gym, you arent training hard enough... you always know when a guy knows how to train when he comes off a bench swearing under his breathe because hes in pain..

[#8]

Or the guy that never talks about much else than cycles and drug plans and PCT finally posting a pic of himself with the "My chest won't grow" problem and seeing that his tiny chest matches the rest of his 165lb build. Wtf?

WTF dude?

Im 175 lbs now FYI.

:sup

[Shortdave]

You cant really use stats to determine whether or not someone is ready to take AAS....

Its all about progress.... i know guys who are taking stuff within their first 6 months of training, i'd tell anyone concidering it to train like a freak for ATLEAST 1.5-2 years before trying anything, because for me, i was making good gains for about 2 years til i started hitting walls. Its a time thing.. not a "who can lift 300lbs on the bench"... for some people they will never bench over 300 even on AAS, some people can bench 400+ without any gear at all.

Time could be a good indicator of when a person is ready for drug use, but I didn't even learn how to train properly for well over a year and even though I was busting ass and getting bigger and stronger it wasn't until I actually learned how to eat and how to deload and really get the most out of my time in the gym that I started to realise my genetic potential. So at a year and a half into training I would have been wasting any drugs I took.

I am one of those people who can bench over 400lbs natural so I may be a bit skewed on what I think "strong" is, and some people are just not built to bench press, but everybody is built for something ie) long arms are bad for bench press and amazing for DL.

Faller, come to Calgary, I guarantee we can get you benching over 300

[AlladdinSane]

WTF dude?

Im 175 lbs now FYI.

:sup

LOL! Dude, did you actually do that? I was being general, so I meant no offense to you specifically...

...but seriously?

[faller]

Faller, come to Calgary, I guarantee we can get you benching over 300

I believe you could.

[CanadianIron]

You're right and I agree, for my first year of training, i thought benching to your chest was "bad" as were deep squats.. to this day Im getting better and better at training, but I dont think that should mean you shouldnt take gear...

Gear gives you a lot more wiggle room when it comes to making gains, Id say you should have a good handle on your training before you take gear but you shouldnt be an expert naturalist before we "allow" you. Id say atleast 2 years... if you still cant train after 2 years of solid gym time, you're probably too dumb to know when the time is right anyways.

However, i think its safe to say that if you cant bench 225 for reps, you shouldnt touch gear... any guy should be able to get to a point where they're repping that kind of weight before they take anything... anything over that, and its specific to the user.

[faller]

Wiggle room??

[CanadianIron]

Wiggle room??

Yeah, when you're taking gear you have a bit more tolerance to being able to make gains... when you're natural you get to a point where you have to train 100% all the time to make a gain, where as on gear, those gains are a bit more forgiving...

[kloan]

Dude, it totally wasn't aimed at you, it wasn't aimed at anybody it is just what I have read and seen from many, many people.


Also, I didn't mean it as be 5'8" bench 300lbs be over 200lbs and be 10% bf or less, rereading it I can see how I came off that way but what I meant was that if your goal is to bulk up and you can't get to 200lbs naturally then you don't know how to eat and that should be learned before you juice.
Likewise if your goal is to get lean and you can't get reasonably lean(10%ish) on diet and exercise alone, then IMO you are doing something wrong.
Strength is the same deal, if a person has plateaued at relatively light weights then their training and diet needs to be looked at.

Disclaimer: when I use the word "you" I mean it in a general way, this isn't aimed at any specific person.
Ahhhh.. k, thanks for clarifying. I read it in such a way that it sounded like anyone 5'8" and under that can't reach 200lbs, bench 300lbs and/or reach 10% bf has no business working out and should quit. lol... Maybe I should have read it again..What you're saying makes perfect sense. I know for myself if my objective was to reach 200lbs bulking, I could do it. Likewise, if I really wanted to bench 300lbs, well I'd certainly work my ass off to reach that goal, although I dunno if I'd get there.. I'm still working up to 200lbs for reps (though I only just started benching again 3 months ago).

For me, numbers are less important than how I look and feel.. the numbers are just another way to keep track of my progress.

[BAM]

Shouldnt be taking gear if yer small & weak? lol

Whatever, i was small & weak when I first started and now my life is way better.

[Memo]

Are you being sarcastic?

Post your height and weight for the last 4 years on 3 months intervals and we might be able to help...

Heres another way to put it, if you arent occationally grunting, yelping or groaning in the gym, you arent training hard enough... you always know when a guy knows how to train when he comes off a bench swearing under his breathe because hes in pain..

This was sarcasm. 2 years ago I was 120lbs, I am 160 now and competing in BJJ in a 160 & under weight class. It really depends on goals.

[champcar99]

it's not for us or anyone else to comment on what people want to do to their bodies ..It's their bodies and they can do what ever they want to do..They should stop doing what they are doing cause we don't think they have the proper understanding of how to obtain their goals.. Who in the **** are we to comment on them..let them do what the **** they want to do...are we the workout cops..give me a break...worry about yourselfs and stop worring about what the other people are doing unles they ask for it..until then mind your own business..like really...

[natenator]

it's not for us or anyone else to comment on what people want to do to their bodies ..It's their bodies and they can do what ever they want to do..They should stop doing what they are doing cause we don't think they have the proper understanding of how to obtain their goals.. Who in the **** are we to comment on them..let them do what the **** they want to do...are we the workout cops..give me a break...worry about yourselfs and stop worring about what the other people are doing unles they ask for it..until then mind your own business..like really...
just like people who are fat. Who are we to be hating on them for being fat? It's their body and they are free to do with it how they see fit. It's none of our business, right?

[champcar99]

just like people who are fat. Who are we to be hating on them for being fat? It's their body and they are free to do with it how they see fit. It's none of our business, right?

I would think so Nate, I do dislike FAT people but I am not about to go and tell them to drop the burger and fries and hit the treadmil..it's none of my ****ing business what they do ..

[natenator]

I would think so Nate, I do dislike FAT people but I am not about to go and tell them to drop the burger and fries and hit the treadmil..it's none of my ****ing business what they do ..
Fair enough.

[steve_d]

i kinda agree with the original post...but I might be biased in the same direction thinking that MOST people start way to early, and even if they haven't started too early, they aren't nearly dedicated enough naturally to even bother taking it to the next level..

But on the flipside, who are we to judge someone who really isn't at their genetic potential, and their genetic potential sux just because those are the cards they were dealt...Is it fair to say that they cannot educate themselves and then take the plunge as long as everything else is done properly? Even if it is "too early" in the normal sense of the word early. It's like saying, if you're ugly, you can't wear make-up because you have to reach a certain level of beauty before being able to improve further...

Perhaps thats a poor example...How about breast implants...should breast implants be reserved for only the really good looking girls?

But then again, I don't even know what side I am on, because I get pissed off seeing tv shows where a girl will get liposuction when all she needed was 3 months of dieting at least before even contemplating surgery - which is kinda equivalent to a guy taking drugs when they could have just trained for a few years to get the same results.....


Ah well. Overall, I think I am gonna have to agree with SD on this one.

[natenator]

Perhaps thats a poor example...How about breast implants...should breast implants be reserved for only the really good looking girls?

Yes lol

[steve_d]

Yes lol

Actually... aside from breast cancer patients, you're right to a point. in a strictly cosmetic setting, if you aren't really born with good genes, then adding DDs shouldn't really do much in terms of bringing you into a new class of "beauty"...but for those that are already good looking, it brings you from one type of beauty to another. I'll leave it at that.

[CanadianIron]

I would think so Nate, I do dislike FAT people but I am not about to go and tell them to drop the burger and fries and hit the treadmil..it's none of my ****ing business what they do ..

Its not your business until your tumour removal surgery gets bumped because a 400lb fat ass having a french fry induced heart attack took your spot, and you die.

[natenator]

Its not your business until your tumour removal surgery gets bumped because a 400lb fat ass having a french fry induced heart attack took your spot, and you die.
or how about your turmour removal surgery gets bumped because the steroid user suffered cardiac arrest?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

[CanadianIron]

Too bad we all know that steroids dont cause cardiac arrest.... infact the likelyhood of serious illness is avoided by a healthy, active lifestyle. The benefits of AAS outweigh the negative side effects of a sedentary lifestyle. If you think AAS use is worst than obesity/smoking/alcohol abuse/etc, you should hit the AAS forum and spread the bad news.

My glass house is made of polycarbonate... so im good to go.

[natenator]

Too bad we all know that steroids dont cause cardiac arrest.... infact the likelyhood of serious illness is avoided by a healthy, active lifestyle. The benefits of AAS outweigh the negative side effects of a sedentary lifestyle. If you think AAS use is worst than obesity/smoking/alcohol abuse/etc, you should hit the AAS forum and spread the bad news.

My glass house is made of polycarbonate... so im good to go.
Dude, your an ignorant fool if you think your AAS usage cannot possibly cause long-term health consequences down the road. I don't pretend to live with a distorted view that health issues might not possible arise years down the road because of my steroid usage but I don't believe I am any better than the fatty.

We have a member here who was prepping for a show (3 weeks out) who is now in a state of renal failure. Could be a few things which caused this for sure but so could steroid use - specifically tren usage. He is lean as hell and was well on his way to doing some damage at his show(s) and many people would look at him and say he is "healthy". How is our lifestyle more healthy than the fatty? Just because we go to the gym on a regular basis?

As I said, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

[AlladdinSane]

it's not for us or anyone else to comment on what people want to do to their bodies ..It's their bodies and they can do what ever they want to do..They should stop doing what they are doing cause we don't think they have the proper understanding of how to obtain their goals.. Who in the **** are we to comment on them..let them do what the **** they want to do...are we the workout cops..give me a break...worry about yourselfs and stop worring about what the other people are doing unles they ask for it..until then mind your own business..like really...


We are not the workout cops. The problem is that those that are inclined to run the silly heavy cycles to achieve average size and strength gains for a non-user dole out advice to anyone that will listen. That'd be like these fatties start giving diet advice. That would be a problem, no? Somebody should step up and say something to all of the unwitting people taking the "Big Macs to lose weight" advice from these fat people, no?

[drdnj]

Dude, your an ignorant fool if you think your AAS usage cannot possibly cause long-term health consequences down the road. I don't pretend to live with a distorted view that health issues might not possible arise years down the road because of my steroid usage but I don't believe I am any better than the fatty.

We have a member here who was prepping for a show (3 weeks out) who is now in a state of renal failure. Could be a few things which caused this for sure but so could steroid use - specifically tren usage. He is lean as hell and was well on his way to doing some damage at his show(s) and many people would look at him and say he is "healthy". How is our lifestyle more healthy than the fatty? Just because we go to the gym on a regular basis?

As I said, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

Good point Nate....
In fact, people look at him and are actually in disbelief that he can be anything but the picture of health----he even has to argue with some people about his decision to pull out of the shows this year---"BUT IF YOU GO FOR ONLY 3 MORE WEEKS YOU WILL CLEAN UP"..... if they only saw him lying on his kitchen floor in a complete state of muscular cramping (HEAD TO TOE) pissing himself on friday night. Not healthy---

[waderow]

my problem is with the guy who posts:

"I just shot 20iu of slin, now what do I do? Are you supposed to feel light headed and clammy?"

Otherwise.... bombs away. Go hard. I will advise a kid to not do it, but hey... I shot first in highschool. Granted, I could have got better gains if I ate better, but still... Do not want to be a hypocrite.

sidenote: contest prep is a different world from average roid usage for aesthetics

[natenator]

my problem is with the guy who posts:

"I just shot 20iu of slin, now what do I do? Are you supposed to feel light headed and clammy?"

Otherwise.... bombs away. Go hard. I will advise a kid to not do it, but hey... I shot first in highschool. Granted, I could have got better gains if I ate better, but still... Do not want to be a hypocrite.

sidenote: contest prep is a different world from average roid usage for aesthetics
No actually it is not. How many members here run massive cycles that have no intention of stepping on stage or that are not in contest prep mode?

There are guys here running slin that don't compete (*cough*)...

[waderow]

who says you have to compete to use slin? who made up the rules pertaining to that? Research it, and do it. You will pack on muscle and there are no facts about side effects.... Just bro science.

Huge cycles.... yeah, there are some. I think the main thing they're screwing up is their HPTA. Tren and drol abuse however is a different story.... Guys have damaged organs from drol and tren abuse...caution needs to be taken.
I am not about to do it, cause you do not need to, but I would think I could go to 5 grams of test per week and with an AI, would not damage myself or end up in the hospital. However a 5 gram stack with drol, tbol, test, tren, deca, and halo.... this is an abusive damaging cycle. I have only ever come across a couple dudes who try this kind of shit.

I think most everyone here is doing fine and is not abusing dosage... Cycle length however can be a problem though.

edit: majority of users here are sub gram on test, and half a gramish on anabolics

[ironwill]

Good point Nate....
In fact, people look at him and are actually in disbelief that he can be anything but the picture of health----he even has to argue with some people about his decision to pull out of the shows this year---"BUT IF YOU GO FOR ONLY 3 MORE WEEKS YOU WILL CLEAN UP"..... if they only saw him lying on his kitchen floor in a complete state of muscular cramping (HEAD TO TOE) pissing himself on friday night. Not healthy---

godamn bro, Ill bet he was petrified, i know i would be..Damn

[kidmode]

Good post SD.


Yes lol

Nate your gold, lol.

[waderow]

We are not the workout cops. The problem is that those that are inclined to run the silly heavy cycles to achieve average size and strength gains for a non-user dole out advice to anyone that will listen. That'd be like these fatties start giving diet advice. That would be a problem, no? Somebody should step up and say something to all of the unwitting people taking the "Big Macs to lose weight" advice from these fat people, no?

cant disagree with this.

[Big D]

this is a great thread, a lot of the members here should read this

[gicantor]

If you're under 5'8" and can't get to 200+ lbs naturally then you aren't trying hard enough. If you can't get to 10% bf naturally, fix your diet don't throw drugs at the problem.


Wow. Love the people taking offense at SD's comment thinking they are about themselves.

If you believe he is dissing you maybe he struck a cord because you probably realize yourself that you are lazy...


The only reason I thought it was about me was his above quote. It's pretty close to the stats I have posted in my sig. Which I made public cause I have nothing to hide.

And I guarentee 80% of the people here are hypocrites and started using before they should have.

[Bowlcut]

The truth hurts but instead of figuring what ratio of anabolic to androgenic compounds one needs for size they should start with their protein to fat ratios.

[AlladdinSane]

The truth hurts but instead of figuring what ratio of anabolic to androgenic compounds one needs for size they should start with their protein to fat ratios.

More like their "food to air" ratios.

[GYMBRAT]

good thread fosho,.......I tell shit basically from my own usage and experience, I am somewhat a "hypocrite" I guess, because I started too young "in my mind" with shit for experience before hand (hence the too young part), but thats what I use as my knowledge for others deciding on using now days ;)

ps: where the hell ya been l8ly AlladinSane?

[AlladdinSane]

ps: where the hell ya been l8ly AlladinSane?

Picked up a sniffle and stayed home for the good of the gym for a week till I was better. (home is "sans computer")

[GYMBRAT]

Picked up a sniffle and stayed home for the good of the gym for a week till I was better. (home is "sans computer")

good man ;) glad ya feel better and great to see ya back :friday

[Bowlcut]

More like their "food to air" ratios.

I want to be a powerlifter but I don't want to get too big.

[AlladdinSane]

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[ironwill]

This thread is nifty........thrifty.............and no-one should be using aas until they hit a buck fifty....i was trying to make a rap song, it sucked.....

[champcar99]

This thread is nifty........thrifty.............and no-one should be using aas until they hit a buck fifty....i was trying to make a rap song, it sucked.....

white guys suck at rap

[ironwill]

How about all the experts post pics and their aas stacks present or past then lets pick an expert to say yay or nay for usage ever again....

David hasselhoff isnt available to judge because he is starting a new reality show....

I must agree that we witness some crazy numbers and always should do our best to edumacate each other along the way...But if one doesnt want to listen theres not much we can do....
Seriously i get frustrated when guys are starting a stack and they tell me what they are taking......Then THEY ASK my friggin opinion and i tell them, then they want a big breakdown on all the numbers of exactly what i use...

So i help them out and always, i mean always cut the doseages way down from their original stack they got from their purple bald zitty friend, and explain how important it is to be patient.... Once in awhile someone listens and it makes me happy, but it is not the norm im afraid...

Then i see them in 2 weeks and ask how its going and they exclaim that the doses i recommended were way to low and they werent growing fast enough....2 weeks....???
I am a low dose guy, and always will be, i tried to use a bit more for 3 weeks one time and the sides were not to my liking, at times i really want to try more to see if i can get so much bigger, and then that feeling goes away....

So i dont know what im rambling on about, but just wanted to say, be safe, ABOVE ALL get bloodwork done and you be the judge what is good for YOU, and how much of a risk versus reward you are willing to take, but if you have the figures from the doc, it makes the decision a lot more real, than just telling yourself all is well and carry on.....
I hope this makes sense....

[gicantor]

i was trying to make a rap song, it sucked.....

yes.yes it did. stick to bodybuilding

[ironwill]

white guys suck at rap

IM FRIGGIN WHITE??????

That explains everything.....:)

[GYMBRAT]

yes.yes it did. stick to bodybuilding

x2:help

[steve_d]

Too bad we all know that steroids dont cause cardiac arrest.... infact the likelyhood of serious illness is avoided by a healthy, active lifestyle. The benefits of AAS outweigh the negative side effects of a sedentary lifestyle. If you think AAS use is worst than obesity/smoking/alcohol abuse/etc, you should hit the AAS forum and spread the bad news.

My glass house is made of polycarbonate... so im good to go.

This is the worst pro-steroid argument ever. If that is what it is.

Benefits outweighing the negatives? It is simply the lesser of two evils. That is like saying I can eat a bag of chips as long as I go out for a run to burn it off. Why not eat something of nutritional value AND go for that run. Just because it is not as bad as something else, doesn't make it good.

I am sure it would be even more healthy to have the active lifestyle, drug free.

[Big J]

Ya I think that steroids are only going to get you to the next level not the top.

[faller]

Picked up a sniffle and stayed home for the good of the gym for a week till I was better. (home is "sans computer")

No no no no, you've been away too long. Read the thread where you are supposed to train no matter how much you snot on the bar. If you are truelly dedicated and hardcore thats what you'd do, for sure. :wb

[GYMBRAT]

No no no no, you've been away too long. Read the thread where you are supposed to train no matter how much you snot on the bar. If you are truelly dedicated and hardcore thats what you'd do, for sure. :wb

LMAO faller! you know what, I was gonna post that too but then thought meh f**k it! :beer

[CanadianIron]

This is the worst pro-steroid argument ever. If that is what it is.

Benefits outweighing the negatives? It is simply the lesser of two evils. That is like saying I can eat a bag of chips as long as I go out for a run to burn it off. Why not eat something of nutritional value AND go for that run. Just because it is not as bad as something else, doesn't make it good.

I am sure it would be even more healthy to have the active lifestyle, drug free.

That wasnt my point... all im really saying is that generally BB'ers and even BB'ers who use AAS are healthier than the majority and are not really comparible to obese people when it comes to being a burden on the health care system...

Obese people WILL use the health care system and generally their weight kills them.. I dont think everyone who uses AAS can expect it to be their death.

[steve_d]

That wasnt my point... all im really saying is that generally BB'ers and even BB'ers who use AAS are healthier than the majority and are not really comparible to obese people when it comes to being a burden on the health care system...

Obese people WILL use the health care system and generally their weight kills them.. I dont think everyone who uses AAS can expect it to be their death.

you've got that right. I missed your point since I've heard people time and time again talk about how what they are doing is ok because they compare to someone else doing something worse:

for example:
1. Smoking pot is ok, its better than getting drunk all the time.

[GYMBRAT]

:popc

[Danger]

for example:
1. Smoking pot is ok, its better than getting drunk all the time.

True story; smoking pot makes you smarter and it makes you cock grow, just a couple of facts the government does not want you to have.

[ironwill]

you've got that right. I missed your point since I've heard people time and time again talk about how what they are doing is ok because they compare to someone else doing something worse:

for example:
1. Smoking pot is ok, its better than getting drunk all the time.

wtf, it isnt?????
Damn Dr. Dre lied......

[steve_d]

True story; smoking pot makes you smarter and it makes you cock grow, just a couple of facts the government does not want you to have.

someone must be slipping pot in my protein shakes without me even knowing it then.

[Memo]

True story; smoking pot makes you smarter and it makes you cock grow, just a couple of facts the government does not want you to have.

Funny stuff..

[cheesesteak]

Hmmm... let's put myself on the line.

I'm 27, was a heavy drinker most of my life, probably damaged my testosterone for life from that. I can only bench 105 for 4 reps on a good day. I weigh 210lbs. Funny huh? I will never naturally be able to bench 315. As my test and gh diminishes over time I doubt my strength is gonna skyrocket.

For getting down to 10%, I have huge deposits of organ fat in the stomach/chest area. Cellulite pretty much everywhere else. I doubt I can ever touch 10% or lower. If I go so low as to see my abs I will most likely have an apron of loose skin.

[cog]

Hmmm... let's put myself on the line.

I'm 27, was a heavy drinker most of my life, probably damaged my testosterone for life from that. I can only bench 105 for 4 reps on a good day. I weigh 210lbs. Funny huh? I will never naturally be able to bench 315. As my test and gh diminishes over time I doubt my strength is gonna skyrocket.

For getting down to 10%, I have huge deposits of organ fat in the stomach/chest area. Cellulite pretty much everywhere else. I doubt I can ever touch 10% or lower. If I go so low as to see my abs I will most likely have an apron of loose skin.

Start with push-ups.

[CanadianIron]

Hmmm... let's put myself on the line.

I'm 27, was a heavy drinker most of my life, probably damaged my testosterone for life from that. I can only bench 105 for 4 reps on a good day. I weigh 210lbs. Funny huh? I will never naturally be able to bench 315. As my test and gh diminishes over time I doubt my strength is gonna skyrocket.

For getting down to 10%, I have huge deposits of organ fat in the stomach/chest area. Cellulite pretty much everywhere else. I doubt I can ever touch 10% or lower. If I go so low as to see my abs I will most likely have an apron of loose skin.

Your attitude sucks man, you'll never get anywhere if thats what you're looking at. Workout like a mofo and you'll get there.

[cheesesteak]

Your attitude sucks man, you'll never get anywhere if thats what you're looking at. Workout like a mofo and you'll get there.

I'll still workout but I'm gonna look at it realistically. Not everyone is made out to be a huge bodybuilder. Some of us will have to settle for being a healthy normal looking person.

[JacktheThriller]

most people are not going to be big, and when u think about it most sex symbols in society are simply slightly muscled men, nothing crazy mostly conditioning

[tex]

True story; smoking pot makes you smarter and it makes you cock grow, just a couple of facts the government does not want you to have.
i knew i shouldnt have quit smoking!!
:troll

[CanadianIron]

most people are not going to be big, and when u think about it most sex symbols in society are simply slightly muscled men, nothing crazy mostly conditioning

I hate this... you see some skinny dude with slight definition in his chest/abs and people think hes "ripped" or "jacked"... yet he has 12" arms and no shoulders/lats to speak of....

[nisser]

I am sick and tired of all the steroid advice and huge cycles being run by people who have the bodies of 14 year old skateboarders. What the eff? Learn how to eat and how to train properly. If you're under 5'8" and can't get to 200+ lbs naturally then you aren't trying hard enough. If you can't get to 10% bf naturally, fix your diet don't throw drugs at the problem. If you can't bench 300lbs naturally, give up. Seriously, if you can't do it then drugs are just going to be a crutch letting you limp along making crappy gains for the rest of your training life.

Introducing drugs to a person who can't achieve moderate goals naturally is like jumping in a car and having somebody push you 4 miles an hour, sure the potential to go fast is there, but you are doing everything wrong.

If somebody is going to run 2+ grams a week just to be an average sized weightlifter and can't hold onto that size without the drugs then something is very, very wrong.

Now I know I sound holier than thou, and I am not the biggest guy or the strongest guy, but I fully intend on being as big and as strong as I can before I get extra help.

Sorry, I disagree. There's merit in what you are saying but it doesn't work for everyone. Some people just don't have the genetics to bench 300lb naturally. Call it bullshit or horseshit but it's true. There's huge variability in people and making blanket statements like that just aren't appropriate.

edit: SD you are probably very right about you being biased. If you're naturally strong and were never on the other side of the fence then you may not see the issues. Just look at your closest friends. It's likely that there's a huge variance in the body shape among them. I have a friend at 210lb, 6'1 that stays around 15%bf year round, doesn't go to the gym ever, drinks several times a week (weekly wing special + weekend) and generally eats like shit non-stop. Than at the other end of the spectrum, you have 5'7 friends that are close to 200lbs with manboobies and 38'' waists who order diet cokes with their chicken salads and hit the gym a couple of times a week. And of course there's all types of people in between.

It's never black and white. We're all built differently and it doesn't even come close to the hormonal levels. Why do you think different people respond to gear in different ways? Some people grow like weeds on 20mg dbol and others get 5lbs of LBM on a test/deca/dbol cycle with reasonable diet.

If we're talking about "ecto" kids that "can't ever grow" because they eat 1600calories in 2 meals every day, then I completely agree with you. But keep in mind, that's not always the case.

[The Brick]

IMO I think it boils down to simply paying your dues.
You should be in an "advanced" stage of training before even considering AAS.
That means several consistent years of heavy and intense training, knowing exactly what your body responds to, and having you diet and supplementation down pact.
If your not at that stage, you are simply just taking a shortcut, and 9 out of 10 times, you will just end back up where you started.

[Shortdave]

Sorry, I disagree. There's merit in what you are saying but it doesn't work for everyone. Some people just don't have the genetics to bench 300lb naturally. Call it bullshit or horseshit but it's true. There's huge variability in people and making blanket statements like that just aren't appropriate.


Well aside from people with physical abnormalities I have yet to meet a single adult male that doesn't have the potential to bench 300lbs raw and drug free. Is it easy? no. But everybody I know who seriously tried to get a 300lbs bench, got the 300lbs bench.

[waderow]

Well aside from people with physical abnormalities I have yet to meet a single adult male that doesn't have the potential to bench 300lbs raw and drug free. Is it easy? no. But everybody I know who seriously tried to get a 300lbs bench, got the 300lbs bench.

I am 33. If I couldnt bench 300, and had the option to go with gear and hit 315 in 4 months, or no gear and hit 315 in 1.5 years, I would go the gear route. And anyone who looked down on me for doing that should just worry about their own shit.

just saying. In my gym there are guys there have been 135 - 185 bench for 3 years with no improvement. Diet, training, etc etc etc. Those guys should not touch gear. But some guy who is pressing 250. That took some work and knowledge of training, and should not be knocked for touching gear.

[CanadianIron]

^This is true, but all gains new or old would be accelerated by gear... if I had started with gear on day 1 all of my gains would have come faster and it wouldnt have taken 2 years to hit a 300lb bench. Without some experience going natural and really seeing what your body can do naturally, you'll never understand and respect the AAS like you should.

I think most men who train hard will make solid gains for their first couple years without needing gear. If you do everything you can and the gains are super slow or not coming, then sure gear...

No one can tell anyone else when to take gear, but I think the general concensus is atleast a couple years of training. Why bother using gear at first when you could easily put on 20-30lbs of lean muscle without it. Maybe faster, but unnecesary.

[nisser]

Well aside from people with physical abnormalities I have yet to meet a single adult male that doesn't have the potential to bench 300lbs raw and drug free. Is it easy? no. But everybody I know who seriously tried to get a 300lbs bench, got the 300lbs bench.

I'm sad to see you didn't comment on the rest of my post.

Not everyone is cut out to be a singer, or a dancer, a doctor or a lawyer. I could sit on my high horse and say well there's no reason why you can't go to school for 8 years, learn math/physics get absolutely phenomenal grades and become the best surgeon to ever grace this planet. Or be the next Picasso, insert random singer/dancer here.

I think we can all agree that not everyone is cut out to be whatever they please. I will never be not even a mediocre singer or artist. I'm tone deaf and I can't draw/paint if my life depended on it. I think we can all agree that I'll never paint anything that someone would be willing to pay for or sing anything anyone would want to torture themselves listening to...

So why is it different when it comes to bodybuilding? It really shouldn't...and believing that everyone is cut out to bench 300lb or whatever other benchmark one sets seems pretty silly and biased.

[AlladdinSane]

I could sit on my high horse and say well there's no reason why you can't go to school for 8 years, learn math/physics get absolutely phenomenal grades and become the best surgeon to ever grace this planet.

Of course this isn't reality. There is a certain amount of natural talent, not to mention brain functioning and nerve control that cannot be learned, that comes with being the best surgeon to have ever been.


I think we can all agree that not everyone is cut out to be whatever they please.

True. I want to be the best bencher in the world. This isn't a reality, but I sure as **** better be able to hit a third (less, actually, if we're still using 300 as the number) of the best bench in the world. I would hope if I put in a bunch of years at school, and really applied myself, that I could score at least 30% on a surgeon's test...


I will never be not even a mediocre singer or artist. I'm tone deaf and I can't draw/paint if my life depended on it. I think we can all agree that I'll never paint anything that someone would be willing to pay for or sing anything anyone would want to torture themselves listening to.

I also wouldn't pay to see you bench 300lbs. But for your own satisfaction, I'm sure if you took art/singing lessons or practiced drawing/painting or singing 4-5 nights a week for a couple of years, also spent as much time thinking about how to improve as you do about weightlifting, joined a forum about it, you could probably muster up something you'd be proud enough of you'd hang it on your wall or impress yourself while singing in the shower.


believing that everyone is cut out to bench 300lb or whatever other benchmark one sets seems pretty silly and biased.

You're wrong.

[Shortdave]

edit: SD you are probably very right about you being biased. If you're naturally strong and were never on the other side of the fence then you may not see the issues. Just look at your closest friends. It's likely that there's a huge variance in the body shape among them. I have a friend at 210lb, 6'1 that stays around 15%bf year round, doesn't go to the gym ever, drinks several times a week (weekly wing special + weekend) and generally eats like shit non-stop. Than at the other end of the spectrum, you have 5'7 friends that are close to 200lbs with manboobies and 38'' waists who order diet cokes with their chicken salads and hit the gym a couple of times a week. And of course there's all types of people in between. You are correct. There is a wide spectrum of body types in my group of friends, heck some of my friends don't even go to the gym and we all know people who "can't drop any weight" even though they "eat super healthy" But when push comes to shove they usually aren't busting ass in the gym and they aren't eating very clean at all. Now my approach to friends like that is to help them with their diets and give them a proper workout and cardio plan I am not going to give them a fat burner and tell them to keep going on their piece of crap program.

On the other end of the scale those skinny guys who "eat a ton of food" only eat that way a couple of times a day, I was that guy until I was taught how to eat correctly, had I taken drugs when I didn't know how to eat, ya, I would have gotten larger, but that's not fixing the problem it's masking it and without that extra food I wouldn't be able to keep any of my gains.

[Shortdave]

By the way, I chose 300lbs as the weight for a bench press because it's easy, a 500lbs bench press is something that not many people are cut out to ever, ever push. A 300lbs bench press is like running a 5 second 40 yard dash, it's not good enough to win you anything but outside of competitions it's not too shabby.

[Chaps]

How about the guys who start a cycle on their first day stepping into the gym? I saw two of these goofs today walking around like they are huge weighing maybe 170lbs at 6' or so. I understand what you guys are saying and you can tell people the right way to do things till your blue in the face but at the end of the day people will do what they want to do, i do find it sad and frustrating to say the least though when someone needs drug to gain weight/move weight that they could so easily do if their training and diet was in line.

[CanadianIron]

You're wrong.

In his defense, i've trained with guys, who trained exactly like I did and they didnt make progress like me. It took them 2 years of hard training to get 2-3 reps of 225 on the bench. It appeared as though they stopped making gains where with the same training I went further.

Some people just do not have the mental capacity to push their bodies through the pain nor do they have the mental focus to do more than what they should. They simply do not posses the mind power to increase their capacity past a certain point. It may be PHYSICALLY possible for any man to bench 300... but MENTALLY impossible for many.... some guys are just wimps and you cant do anything about that.

[faller]

By the way, I chose 300lbs as the weight for a bench press because it's easy, .

K now i'll just go outside and shoot myself!

I do agree with this though. My problem with the bench is i have got it in my head that i can't. I fail on my lift mentally before i even unrack the bar. I can't shake that feeling no matter how much i try.

I'm just going to have to move to Calgary.. We were actually thinking about doing a road trip that way, untill we heard about the snow you guys just got.

[CanadianIron]

Do negatives with 315 for a few weeks. Helps a lot. I never climb onto the bench and do full ROM's with my 1 rep max.

I always do shallow reps with weight I cant handle and then drop a few pounds and do super clean reps.

For example. I racked up 365 on the bench tried a rep and failed, but after racking it and doing 315 right away, I did 6 full clean reps... try something like that....

[buildinthaskinnys]

I think it is all relative, and personally I wouldnt worry about it too much, these sort of people will have given up and moved on with there lives in a short period of time, of course there is always one or two of "those" dudes that suck at everything they do, but when they are on and "jacked" they are somebodys finally.

In the end it is all about the diet and training, this is where your gains come from, not steroids.

I hear so much about the "magic" of steroids you know like when its a test e cycle and someone is wondering when the gains start to happen and everyone says you gotta wait at least 3 weeks for the "magic" to kick in.

This is why people start using at young ages and never learn what it is to gain naturally, Because nobody can wait 2 to 3 years to eat properly and train properly, everyone needs it now or yesterday, so they take the "magic".

And yes I do believe a 300 pound bench is possible for all but maybe 10 % of the adult male population. Most people would never try hard enough to prove that though.

[natenator]

I think it is all relative, and personally I wouldnt worry about it too much, these sort of people will have given up and moved on with there lives in a short period of time, of course there is always one or two of "those" dudes that suck at everything they do, but when they are on and "jacked" they are somebodys finally.

In the end it is all about the diet and training, this is where your gains come from, not steroids.

I hear so much about the "magic" of steroids you know like when its a test e cycle and someone is wondering when the gains start to happen and everyone says you gotta wait at least 3 weeks for the "magic" to kick in.

This is why people start using at young ages and never learn what it is to gain naturally, Because nobody can wait 2 to 3 years to eat properly and train properly, everyone needs it now or yesterday, so they take the "magic".

And yes I do believe a 300 pound bench is possible for all but maybe 10 % of the adult male population. Most people would never try hard enough to prove that though.
reps

[Bowlcut]

K now i'll just go outside and shoot myself!

I do agree with this though. My problem with the bench is i have got it in my head that i can't. I fail on my lift mentally before i even unrack the bar. I can't shake that feeling no matter how much i try.

I'm just going to have to move to Calgary.. We were actually thinking about doing a road trip that way, untill we heard about the snow you guys just got.

Use more smaller plates instead of several big ones if you are intimidated by the weight.

Say you are going to bench 295. Instead of 2x45lbs on each side with a 35lbs plate you would use a dime plate and a 25lbs plate.

[faller]

Use more smaller plates instead of several big ones if you are intimidated by the weight.

Say you are going to bench 295. Instead of 2x45lbs on each side with a 35lbs plate you would use a dime plate and a 25lbs plate.

I actually started doing this recently. On one of the bench days of the 5x5 you ramp the weight and i found i had an easier time lifting it this way on my last set. So just for shits and giggles i tried it on the other day and mentally it helped.

I just watched those vids posted on benching and i'm pretty stoked about tommorrow.

[Shortdave]

I actually started doing this recently. On one of the bench days of the 5x5 you ramp the weight and i found i had an easier time lifting it this way on my last set. So just for shits and giggles i tried it on the other day and mentally it helped.

I just watched those vids posted on benching and i'm pretty stoked about tommorrow.


For most people their actual bench will go down when they learn this new technique, but once your CNS gets used to the new movement pattern your weights will shoot up

[faller]

For most people their actual bench will go down when they learn this new technique, but once your CNS gets used to the new movement pattern your weights will shoot up

I'm thinking about just working on technique for the next few workouts and not worry about poundage's. I'll watch the vid just before i go to the gym :)

[Shortdave]

I'm thinking about just working on technique for the next few workouts and not worry about poundage's. I'll watch the vid just before i go to the gym :)

Good :D

The reason I mentioned it is that a lot of people give up on the proper technique because they can't immediately bench more and often times bench less, so they think their way is better.

[AlladdinSane]

STICKY THIS SHIT.

[faller]

^^I second that!!

[Chunk]

The people that view steroids as cheating have obviously never used them, and know nothing of what they do to the body.

somewhat OT, but what is your feeling on those who use it in professional sports?

barry bonds, jose canseco, mark mcgwire, sammy sosa, etc. may all be dicks or liars...but anyone who seriously thinks you can inject and automatically hit a baseball is a ****ing lunatic!

hall of fame checklist:

wife beaters and drunks - ok
steroid users in an era that was full of steroid users who didn't produce results - not ok

i can't remember, but I think there is even a murderer in one of the hall of fames (not OJ)

sorry about the possible thread highjack, TS!