prop/t3 diet question

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

Hey guys, i just have a quick question for you. Ive just recently started a cycle consiting of:

Test Prop 150mgEOD
T3 100mcg ED (with ramp up)
ECA 2x day

My goal for this cycle is simple...Drop bf.

What i wanted to know is how much of a calorie deficit could i get away with? Im eating clean, and keeping protein intake high and doing a 5day split w/o routine, with am cardio and a shorter session of cardio PWO. I was informed that 525mg of test a week would be more then enough to maintain my current LBM. Any comments would be appreciated

My stats are:
25yrs
195lbs
5'9"
20%bf

[rufusrocks]

test in any ester is NOT a fat burner. but having more test does help making us men be more men thus the difference between the 2 sexes . why women or so soft and curvevaciuos(sp) estrogen man they have more.

the best fat burner is a good diet and cardio. see a nice chick fit it ain't test it's diet and cardio.

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

test in any ester is NOT a fat burner. but having more test does help making us men be more men thus the difference between the 2 sexes . why women or so soft and curvevaciuos(sp) estrogen man they have more.

the best fat burner is a good diet and cardio. see a nice chick fit it ain't test it's diet and cardio.

lol....what a useless comment. honestly, does someone with a little knowledge care to chime in. In case you cant read, im using T3, a synthetic thyroid hormone, which increases you basal metabolic rate, as well as increasing macronutrient synthesism, would you care to qoute me as to where i ever even implied that i was using test as a fat burner?? Its really annoying to have people like you commenting without even reading the thread, but probably more to point when it comes to you, someone whos just plain ignorant. Allthough diet and cardio are important, which i also mentioned in my OP, Im looking for an answer with a little something more then that bro, but thanks

[gsxr750]

I'd start with a 500 calorie per day deficit from your food, and do your cardio for 45mins to an hour. That will have you shedding a good 2 pounds of fat per week.

Although with those compounds you could probably get away with a larger calorie deficit, but 500 calories is usually a good ballpark area to start with, and adjust from there

I think it was Abel who said something like...it's easy to starve someone into contest shape.. you may win the war but you'll lose the battle :)

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

I'd start with a 500 calorie per day deficit from your food, and do your cardio for 45mins to an hour. That will have you shedding a good 2 pounds of fat per week.

Although with those compounds you could probably get away with a larger calorie deficit, but 500 calories is usually a good ballpark area to start with, and adjust from there

I think it was Abel who said something like...it's easy to starve someone into contest shape.. you may win the war but you'll lose the battle :)

thanks bro, i mean im only 2 days in, and i really want to have the diet nailed to get the most out of it. Im only taking in carbs during breakfast and preworkout, and making sure there good sources. I guess i just needed some positive reinforcement, i just want to avoid going catabolic, but at the same time i want to get the most fat loss possible...such a fine line i guess eh? much appreciated for the intelligent response:)

[rufusrocks]

lol....what a useless comment. honestly, does someone with a little knowledge care to chime in. In case you cant read, im using T3, a synthetic thyroid hormone, which increases you basal metabolic rate, as well as increasing macronutrient synthesism, would you care to qoute me as to where i ever even implied that i was using test as a fat burner?? Its really annoying to have people like you commenting without even reading the thread, but probably more to point when it comes to you, someone whos just plain ignorant. Allbeit diet and cardio are important, which i also mentioned in my OP. Im looking for an answer with a little something more then that bro, but thanks

sorry if that's what you interpreted. useless not my intention. i offered some advice taking drugs to burn fat bad idea. anyone with a medical degree would concurr and if my advice is offensive well sorry. you have no clue or idea how to respond to someone who offers advice. T3, T4. Clen , ALL, DNP, Ephedrine, hoodia, liposuction before you call someone usless BACK IT UP.

punks!!!



good luck

[waderow]

you do not need a calorie deficit to burn fat with this protocol.

The test, t3 and ECA, along side your age and training will lean you up just fine.

Do your weights. Do your cardio. Keep your diet clean and slightly above maintenance, and recomp your body.

A calorie deficit under maintenance will lose weight faster, but youre only 20% bf, so do it a bit slower, and gain some muscle in the mean time

My 2 cents.

[waderow]

unless of course your 20% is in reality 30%

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

sorry if that's what you interpreted. useless not my intention. i offered some advice taking drugs to burn fat bad idea. anyone with a medical degree would concurr and if my advice is offensive well sorry. you have no clue or idea how to respond to someone who offers advice. T3, T4. Clen , ALL, DNP, Ephedrine, hoodia, liposuction before you call someone usless BACK IT UP.

punks!!!



good luck

read your original reply... i interpreted it just how you intended. Maybe you should have just said your peice instead of trying to be a smart ass, and maybe you wouldnt have got smacked pal! As for backing up what i said...i think you did that yourself with your earlier comment.

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

you do not need a calorie deficit to burn fat with this protocol.

The test, t3 and ECA, along side your age and training will lean you up just fine.

Do your weights. Do your cardio. Keep your diet clean and slightly above maintenance, and recomp your body.

A calorie deficit under maintenance will lose weight faster, but youre only 20% bf, so do it a bit slower, and gain some muscle in the mean time

My 2 cents.


I was under the impression that it would be pretty hard, if not impossible, to put on muscle using t3 at such a dosage, not trying to contradict you, im legitimately curious. I would much rather do what you suggested, as it kills 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak..... and yes, with a seven skin fold test, calipers give me 20%.

[waderow]

I was under the impression that it would be pretty hard, if not impossible, to put on muscle using t3 at such a dosage, not trying to contradict you, im legitimately curious. I would much rather do what you suggested, as it kills 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak..... and yes, with a seven skin fold test, calipers give me 20%.

news to me...





Cytomel
Chemical Name: Liothyrine Sodium
Drug Class: Thyroid Agent
Cytomel is the most common brand name for a synthetic thyroid hormone- more specifically, it’s a synthetic version of T3 (triiodothyronine ). T3 is not produced directly by your thyroid gland, is actually converted from the T4 thyroid hormone (thyroxine). (1)

T3 functions as the more metabolically active of two primary thyroid hormones, and is a regulator of oxidative metabolism of energy producing substrates by your cell’s mitochondria. The mitochondria produce ATP, which is used by the body as energy, and since T3 supplementation causes an increase in ATP, by using Cytomel, you will increase overall metabolic activity(1)(2). It does this in part by increasing your cardiac output (Which will puts demands on your ATP usage, and this increased heart rate and increased force of contraction of the cardiac muscle accounts for 30-40% of ATP usage in abnormally elevated thyroid levels (3).T3 also may cause the body to increase its production of uncoupling proteins. Uncoupling proteins are a transporter family present in the mitochondrial inner membrane. It serves to uncouple respiration from ATP synthesis by dissipating (uncoupling) the transmembrane proton gradient as heat. This makes the body highly inefficient at producing useful energy, because in lieu of ATP being produced from energy substrates, heat is generated instead, without providing the body with useful energy. As you may suspect, this means you are burning calories without actually producing useful energy- i.e. you burn calories just sitting around. Then when you actually need to produce energy from foodstuffs, you have already burned off a fair portion which was released as useless heat. This uncoupling likely occurs in skeletal muscle, and this is one mechanism by which T3 (Cytomel) can cause an increase in basal metabolic rate(4).

This increase in overall metabolic activity has many additional benefits. Cytomel will enhance your body’s ability to synthesize protein. This could actually result in an increase in muscle mass, although fat-burning is the primary effect athletes are seeking with Cytomel usage. Not too many people report this, however, although at low doses it does seem to provide at least a little benefit in this department. Overdosing can result in a decrease in muscle mass, however- but when used concurrently with steroids, this is unlikely. When you’re seriously dieting, additional Cytomel is a good idea if the scale isn’t moving for a week or so.

Additionally, in all of the studies I’ve seen, T3 also increased growth hormone (GH) production. (5)(6) and since GH is also a strongly lipolytic compound, this transcriptional increase may be yet another mechanism of action by which T3 exerts its effects. Unfortunately, it has been noted by me elsewhere that T3 when used concurrently with GH causes a decrease in the nitrogen retention normally found with GH(7). The solution, which has been covered extensively by me elsewhere

Another interesting benefit of having some extra T3 floating around your body is that T3 has been shown to possibly (probably) upregulate the beta 2 receptors in adipose tissue. This makes it a very potent and synergistic stack with both Clenbuterol as well as Albuterol or even ephedrine.

I’ve always been an advocate of stopping Cytomel use immediately and without tapering, when you are finished with using it. Numerous studies I’ve read at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of years of thyroid replacement therapy (9)(10)- recovering, in fact, as quickly as people who have only been on it for a few weeks. Supplementing your thyroid recovery after you go off Cytomel with Clomid & HCG, as well as some sort of a green tea product (forskolli), a guggulsterone product, and some Tyrosine is a good idea.

Cytomel remains easy to find on the black market and is relatively cheap.

References:

1. Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th Edition. John w. Hole jr.

2. Physicians Desk Reference

3. Annu Rev Nutr 1995;15:263-91 Thermogenesis and thyroid function. Freake HC, Oppenheimer JH.

4. J Clin Invest 2001 Sep;108(5):733-7 Effect of triiodothyronine on mitochondrial energy coupling in human skeletal muscle. Lebon V, Dufour S, Petersen KF, Ren J, Jucker BM, Slezak LA, Cline GW, Rothman DL, Shulman GI.

5. Role of thyroid hormone in the control of growth hormone gene expression Braz J Med Biol Res 1994 May;27(5):1269-72. Volpato CB, Nunes MT.

6. Low-dose T(3) improves the bed rest model of simulated weightlessness in men and women. Am J Physiol 1999 Aug;277(2 Pt 1):E370-9 Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Zachwieja JJ, Bray GA, Windhauser MM, Wickersham PJ, Veldhuis JD, Tulley R, de la Bretonne JA.

7. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man. Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen. J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9

8. Alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic receptor binding and action in gluteal adipocytes from patients with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism Metabolism 1987 Nov;36(11):1031-9 Richelsen B, Sorensen NS

9. Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

10. Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

news to me...





Cytomel
Chemical Name: Liothyrine Sodium
Drug Class: Thyroid Agent
Cytomel is the most common brand name for a synthetic thyroid hormone- more specifically, it’s a synthetic version of T3 (triiodothyronine ). T3 is not produced directly by your thyroid gland, is actually converted from the T4 thyroid hormone (thyroxine). (1)

T3 functions as the more metabolically active of two primary thyroid hormones, and is a regulator of oxidative metabolism of energy producing substrates by your cell’s mitochondria. The mitochondria produce ATP, which is used by the body as energy, and since T3 supplementation causes an increase in ATP, by using Cytomel, you will increase overall metabolic activity(1)(2). It does this in part by increasing your cardiac output (Which will puts demands on your ATP usage, and this increased heart rate and increased force of contraction of the cardiac muscle accounts for 30-40% of ATP usage in abnormally elevated thyroid levels (3).T3 also may cause the body to increase its production of uncoupling proteins. Uncoupling proteins are a transporter family present in the mitochondrial inner membrane. It serves to uncouple respiration from ATP synthesis by dissipating (uncoupling) the transmembrane proton gradient as heat. This makes the body highly inefficient at producing useful energy, because in lieu of ATP being produced from energy substrates, heat is generated instead, without providing the body with useful energy. As you may suspect, this means you are burning calories without actually producing useful energy- i.e. you burn calories just sitting around. Then when you actually need to produce energy from foodstuffs, you have already burned off a fair portion which was released as useless heat. This uncoupling likely occurs in skeletal muscle, and this is one mechanism by which T3 (Cytomel) can cause an increase in basal metabolic rate(4).

This increase in overall metabolic activity has many additional benefits. Cytomel will enhance your body’s ability to synthesize protein. This could actually result in an increase in muscle mass, although fat-burning is the primary effect athletes are seeking with Cytomel usage. Not too many people report this, however, although at low doses it does seem to provide at least a little benefit in this department. Overdosing can result in a decrease in muscle mass, however- but when used concurrently with steroids, this is unlikely. When you’re seriously dieting, additional Cytomel is a good idea if the scale isn’t moving for a week or so.

Additionally, in all of the studies I’ve seen, T3 also increased growth hormone (GH) production. (5)(6) and since GH is also a strongly lipolytic compound, this transcriptional increase may be yet another mechanism of action by which T3 exerts its effects. Unfortunately, it has been noted by me elsewhere that T3 when used concurrently with GH causes a decrease in the nitrogen retention normally found with GH(7). The solution, which has been covered extensively by me elsewhere

Another interesting benefit of having some extra T3 floating around your body is that T3 has been shown to possibly (probably) upregulate the beta 2 receptors in adipose tissue. This makes it a very potent and synergistic stack with both Clenbuterol as well as Albuterol or even ephedrine.

I’ve always been an advocate of stopping Cytomel use immediately and without tapering, when you are finished with using it. Numerous studies I’ve read at have shown people recovering their thyroid hormone relatively quickly (within months, at most) after going off of years of thyroid replacement therapy (9)(10)- recovering, in fact, as quickly as people who have only been on it for a few weeks. Supplementing your thyroid recovery after you go off Cytomel with Clomid & HCG, as well as some sort of a green tea product (forskolli), a guggulsterone product, and some Tyrosine is a good idea.

Cytomel remains easy to find on the black market and is relatively cheap.

References:

1. Human Anatomy and Physiology, 6th Edition. John w. Hole jr.

2. Physicians Desk Reference

3. Annu Rev Nutr 1995;15:263-91 Thermogenesis and thyroid function. Freake HC, Oppenheimer JH.

4. J Clin Invest 2001 Sep;108(5):733-7 Effect of triiodothyronine on mitochondrial energy coupling in human skeletal muscle. Lebon V, Dufour S, Petersen KF, Ren J, Jucker BM, Slezak LA, Cline GW, Rothman DL, Shulman GI.

5. Role of thyroid hormone in the control of growth hormone gene expression Braz J Med Biol Res 1994 May;27(5):1269-72. Volpato CB, Nunes MT.

6. Low-dose T(3) improves the bed rest model of simulated weightlessness in men and women. Am J Physiol 1999 Aug;277(2 Pt 1):E370-9 Lovejoy JC, Smith SR, Zachwieja JJ, Bray GA, Windhauser MM, Wickersham PJ, Veldhuis JD, Tulley R, de la Bretonne JA.

7. Effects of long-term growth hormone (GH) and triiodothyronine (T3) administration on functional hepatic nitrogen clearance in normal man. Wolthers T, Grofte T, Moller N, Vilstrup H, Jorgensen. J Hepatol 1996 Mar;24(3):313-9

8. Alpha 2- and beta-adrenergic receptor binding and action in gluteal adipocytes from patients with hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism Metabolism 1987 Nov;36(11):1031-9 Richelsen B, Sorensen NS

9. Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy. N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4 Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

10. Patterns off recovery of the hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis in patients taken of chronic thyroid therapy. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1975 Jul;41(1):70-80 Krugman LG, Hershman JM, Chopra IJ, Levine GA, Pekary E, Geffner DL, Chua Teco GN

awesome information. thanks alot!!! so basically what im gathering then, is that it will actually aid in nutrient partitioning contributing to gains in LBM, while simultaneously burning bf. Im just trying to wrap my head around how you can be burning all these extra calories, and still have enough left in the tank to to add muscle. sorry if im giving you a headache lol. I was aware about the change in thought as of late regarding the taper, and this does make sense to me :)

thanks for your patience

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

"This increase in overall metabolic activity has many additional benefits. Cytomel will enhance your body’s ability to synthesize protein. This could actually result in an increase in muscle mass, although fat-burning is the primary effect athletes are seeking with Cytomel usage. Not too many people report this, however, although at low doses it does seem to provide at least a little benefit in this department. Overdosing can result in a decrease in muscle mass, however- but when used concurrently with steroids, this is unlikely. When you’re seriously dieting, additional Cytomel is a good idea if the scale isn’t moving for a week or so."

on second thought after reading this paragraph a few times over, i seem to get the impression that this benefit would only present itself at low dosages, and even then, its not a sure thing. correct me if im wrong.

[rufusrocks]

i wasn't trying to be a smart ass. never have never will. sorry if it came that way. i only replied from experience. i just never saw a cycle like yours and it scared me. i only wanted to help.

sorry bud.

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

i wasn't trying to be a smart ass. never have never will. sorry if it came that way. i only replied from experience. i just never saw a cycle like yours and it scared me. i only wanted to help.

sorry bud.

no worries man, i was a little out of line myself....maybe got a little carried away.

i appreciate the help regardless bro.

take er easy!

[waderow]

"This increase in overall metabolic activity has many additional benefits. Cytomel will enhance your body’s ability to synthesize protein. This could actually result in an increase in muscle mass, although fat-burning is the primary effect athletes are seeking with Cytomel usage. Not too many people report this, however, although at low doses it does seem to provide at least a little benefit in this department. Overdosing can result in a decrease in muscle mass, however- but when used concurrently with steroids, this is unlikely. When you’re seriously dieting, additional Cytomel is a good idea if the scale isn’t moving for a week or so."

on second thought after reading this paragraph a few times over, i seem to get the impression that this benefit would only present itself at low dosages, and even then, its not a sure thing. correct me if im wrong.


Its not a medical study, but likely has merit. All I am saying is I do not think you have to cut calories below maintenance to lose fat with the noted protocol. Do you cardio, and train with a clean diet. YOu will recomp

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

sounds like a plan bro... thanks for the info. ill post up some some results as time goes by.

thanks waderow!

[Praetorian]

Firstly your diet will be the determining factor in how much fat you lose.
At 20% you are to put it nicely...overly plump...not trying to be mean just realistic. Putting on muscle while dropping bodyfat is a hope and a prayer...not going to happen. 100mcg T3 is overkill and will most likely end up costing you lean mass...75mcg in divided doses daily ramped up slowly(start at 25mcg and add 12.5mcg every two weeks) is more than enough.
Throw the ECA in the garbage and get something decent like clen...much more effective and easier on the body. You will need to hit cardio pretty hard as well. Start with 40min once daily and add 5-10 min every week or so until you hit around 60min twice daily. For your diet I would suggest doing a quick search and run Palumbo's keto diet...its easily found online.
Your test dosage is perfectly fine.
P

[JonnyO]

I like the advice above!

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

Firstly your diet will be the determining factor in how much fat you lose.
At 20% you are to put it nicely...overly plump...not trying to be mean just realistic. Putting on muscle while dropping bodyfat is a hope and a prayer...not going to happen. 100mcg T3 is overkill and will most likely end up costing you lean mass...75mcg in divided doses daily ramped up slowly(start at 25mcg and add 12.5mcg every two weeks) is more than enough.
Throw the ECA in the garbage and get something decent like clen...much more effective and easier on the body. You will need to hit cardio pretty hard as well. Start with 40min once daily and add 5-10 min every week or so until you hit around 60min twice daily. For your diet I would suggest doing a quick search and run Palumbo's keto diet...its easily found online.
Your test dosage is perfectly fine.
P


I appreciate your advice bro. BUT as far as clen being easier on the body then eca, i dont agree with that... there have been studies (allthough on animals) that show that clen can potentially cause heart necrosis (it can actually kill cells within the heart) in my opinion its hardly a safe bet...id much rather use eca. Now realistically i never really intended to put muscle on with this cycle, rather retain what i have, but if the possibilty of doing so is there, ill do what i can to make it happen. As for the T3 im ramping up to 100mcg, its half life is anywhere between 11 hours and 1.5days, which is why im taking it all in one dose 30min prior to brakfast on an empty stomack to encopurage absobtion(i have liquid t3). My diet is posted up in the diet forum as of earlier today. And as for cardio, i do 45 min in the morning, 20min PWO, and 45 min at night. As long as the bf is dropping, im achieving my primary objective with this cycle.

cheers for the reply

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

In case you wanted some proof

Myotoxic effects of clenbuterol in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool L3 2ET, United Kingdom. hhsjburn@livjm.ac.jp

Myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and soleus muscle of adult male Wistar rats was investigated in response to a single subcutaneous injection of the anabolic beta(2)-adrenergic receptor agonist clenbuterol. Necrosis was immunohistochemically detected by administration of a myosin antibody 1 h before the clenbuterol challenge and quantified by using image analysis. Clenbuterol-induced myocyte necrosis occurred against a background of zero damage in control muscles. In the heart, the clenbuterol-induced necrosis was not uniform, being more abundant in the left subendocardium and peaking 2.4 mm from the apex. After position (2.4 mm from the apex), dose (5 mg clenbuterol/kg), and sampling time (12 h) were optimized, maximum cardiomyocyte necrosis was found to be 1.0 +/- 0.2%. In response to the same parameters (i.e., 5 mg of clenbuterol and sampled at 12 h), skeletal myocyte necrosis was 4.4 +/- 0.8% in the soleus. These data show significant myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and skeletal muscle of the rat. Such irreversible damage in the heart suggests that clenbuterol may be damaging to long-term health.

there are a few other studies as well but id have to dig them up....

[nisser]

5 mg clenbuterol/kg

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

regardless... that was enough for me to make a decision not to use it, rather not take the chance.

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

edited

[waderow]

which is why im taking it all in one dose 30min prior to brakfast on an empty stomack to encopurage absobtion(i have liquid t3).

this is the correct protocol (spelling errors aside LOL)

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

this is the correct protocol (spelling errors aside LOL)

WOW! That one was bad. haha.

[MikeyFXD35]

In case you wanted some proof

Myotoxic effects of clenbuterol in the rat heart and soleus muscle.

Research Institute for Sport and Exercise Sciences, Liverpool John Moores University, Liverpool L3 2ET, United Kingdom. hhsjburn@livjm.ac.jp

Myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and soleus muscle of adult male Wistar rats was investigated in response to a single subcutaneous injection of the anabolic beta(2)-adrenergic receptor agonist clenbuterol. Necrosis was immunohistochemically detected by administration of a myosin antibody 1 h before the clenbuterol challenge and quantified by using image analysis. Clenbuterol-induced myocyte necrosis occurred against a background of zero damage in control muscles. In the heart, the clenbuterol-induced necrosis was not uniform, being more abundant in the left subendocardium and peaking 2.4 mm from the apex. After position (2.4 mm from the apex), dose (5 mg clenbuterol/kg), and sampling time (12 h) were optimized, maximum cardiomyocyte necrosis was found to be 1.0 +/- 0.2%. In response to the same parameters (i.e., 5 mg of clenbuterol and sampled at 12 h), skeletal myocyte necrosis was 4.4 +/- 0.8% in the soleus. These data show significant myocyte-specific necrosis in the heart and skeletal muscle of the rat. Such irreversible damage in the heart suggests that clenbuterol may be damaging to long-term health.

there are a few other studies as well but id have to dig them up....

Glad am not a rat...LOL

[force]

Those studies on clen were done with doses WAY higher than we would ever use. Ive used it on and off for years without issue. I do also think that EC is quite useful as well though....clen is just better.

From personal experience I can tell you that for me anything over about 75mcg/day of T3 just made me flat and weak...and that was while using test, tren and winnie.525mg of test will help you hold on to some LBM but I dont think that is enough for that high dose of T3..not on its own anyway.

Keep in mind that T3 is better suited for precontest BB's trying to rid that last few ounces of fat...these are guys that are already in single digit BF percentages. Your at 20% bro, I would hit the diet and cardio hard for 8 weeks and then give T3 or clen a go if your progress stalls.

Getting from 20% to 10% wouldnt be hard...getting from 10% to 5% and your def going to need some help!

Either way be careful with the T3...it is a serious compound.

Let us know how it goes whatever you decide.

F.

[Praetorian]

I appreciate your advice bro. BUT as far as clen being easier on the body then eca, i dont agree with that... there have been studies (allthough on animals) that show that clen can potentially cause heart necrosis (it can actually kill cells within the heart) in my opinion its hardly a safe bet...id much rather use eca. Now realistically i never really intended to put muscle on with this cycle, rather retain what i have, but if the possibilty of doing so is there, ill do what i can to make it happen. As for the T3 im ramping up to 100mcg, its half life is anywhere between 11 hours and 1.5days, which is why im taking it all in one dose 30min prior to brakfast on an empty stomack to encopurage absobtion(i have liquid t3). My diet is posted up in the diet forum as of earlier today. And as for cardio, i do 45 min in the morning, 20min PWO, and 45 min at night. As long as the bf is dropping, im achieving my primary objective with this cycle.

cheers for the reply

In theory your points may be valid...however thats where things end. In real life on human athletes they dont hold water. There are many reasons why animal studies do not translate over to humans and specifically with clen this holds true on almost every count. Not to mention the studies are skewed in the fact as already mentioned dosages are not comparable to those used in humans.
As for T3 the half life is irrellevant when dosing daily...your blood levels will be more stable and there are way less sides by splitting the dose. Taking the entire dose at once puts much more strain on the heart etc...not a good idea.
And to touch on another point T3 offseason is not going to help you build more muscle. T3 burns calories indescriminately...if anything it will slow your progress.
P

[InPursuitOfPerfection]

thanks for all the responses guys...as always, your all very helpfull and its good to know there is a place i can come to get answers when i need them.

as for the t3 ive been using for about a week now, and ive dropped 3 lbs and the weight has gone up on all my lifts. It may be that my t3 is underdosed because i barely get any sides at all from 100mcg a day, taken all at once. I do notice that my resting heart rate is increased, but nothing extreme. I sweat like a mad man in the gym, and i notice that i get a little heated after eating. Im only 1 week in and im already seeing changes in the mirror, and a handfull of people have said something. Im coming off a layoff due to a really bad rotator cuff injury and i let myself get fat in that time, plus not being able to lift as regulary really aided with that. I know that i could proabaly accomplish my goals without the T3 but it would take much longer, and as bad as it sounds, im not a very patient person. Ill keep a close eye on the T3, and if i notice myself getting weaker, or "flat" i may start ramping down the dose. Im really trying to get my bf down as quick as possible because id like to do a good bulker afterwards, with time for cutting up before next summer.

Once again, thanks for all your help brothers. I'll make sure to keep you posted with how things work out for me. I took before pictures as well as body tape measurments. So if things work out like i hope, it should make for a good idea of what can be accomnplished with such a cycle.

[kawikaratekid]

How did it go?

[deletedandgone]

Those studies on clen were done with doses WAY higher than we would ever use. Ive used it on and off for years without issue. I do also think that EC is quite useful as well though....clen is just better.

From personal experience I can tell you that for me anything over about 75mcg/day of T3 just made me flat and weak...and that was while using test, tren and winnie.525mg of test will help you hold on to some LBM but I dont think that is enough for that high dose of T3..not on its own anyway.

Keep in mind that T3 is better suited for precontest BB's trying to rid that last few ounces of fat...these are guys that are already in single digit BF percentages. Your at 20% bro, I would hit the diet and cardio hard for 8 weeks and then give T3 or clen a go if your progress stalls.

Getting from 20% to 10% wouldnt be hard...getting from 10% to 5% and your def going to need some help!

Either way be careful with the T3...it is a serious compound.

Let us know how it goes whatever you decide.

F.

My current goal is to gain muscle, so not to cut. But at the same time I'm concerned about my midsection getting larger. Would 20 mins of cardio PWO help on a 5 day split with gaining diet, or just don't bother?