Strength & Size

[tiramisu]

These 2 seem to alternate for me to some extent.

I get stronger then I grow.
I grow then I get stronger.

I'm not sure if it's just because it takes time to train new meat to be useful or if there is a causal relation between the two. Obviously larger muscle has a mechanical advantage yet this is not so obviously born out when lifting. There is at a minimum a lag.

Has anyone seen any studies on the relationship between strength and hypertrophy?

[Brandi]

A little bit, not alot. Im studying exercise endocrinology right now.

The gist of it, is that there is and is not a relationship. There have been studies that show the "intensity of effort" has a direct relationship on both. (as opposed to lbs lifted). So if your in the gym and you concentrate on the movement making it as "hard" as possible using full ROM, this can be with speed, tempo, balance, isometrics or resistance depending on what you want.... the result is that you will recruit more muscle fibers, and larger muscle fibers the closer you get to failure. This effects both strength and hypertrophy, which is why you might be experiencing the ping pong.

Its called "the size principle" if you want to look it up.

[tex]

^ not to wreck the thread but were you on musclesci? you look familiar.....I used to post there ages ago before i found cbb.....

[Brandi]

maybe, I dont know. Ive been on alot of boards over the years. I havent been there recently. I really love tot alk about BBing, I am such a NERD haha

[tex]

right on...me neither....

[swolegantor]

Usually big engines make for fast cars.....usually.

[jack_krauser]

Usually big engines make for fast cars.....usually.

Big engines = Big torque = Fast

But personally, i think that if you use heavier weights with proper form then it will yeild better gains rather than using lighweights. In my case, what has worked best for me is to lift as heavy with proper form for high reps (10-12 usually). :bch

[JifeLacket]

A 4cyl 2.0 can be tricked out to smash a 6.4l V8... Relating that to power lifting that would be like extreme 110% efforts below 5 reps w/ no hypertrophy. 6.4l would be like major hypertrophy but isnt as 'tuned' and for functional transfer of power may never be as good as a tricked out 2.0... parts are so big and can only be so efficient.

In the sprint world we are tricking out the 2.0's

Training for power I always go through a phase of hypertrophy at the beginning of my weight season to get back some size lost from doing speed work only, but with strength does come size to a certain point. Going over the size that produced peak strength may not produce more power. I always go hypertrophy (12rep) strength (6-10rep) power (1-5rep) and im smashing PB's every time i go through this cycle. Hypertrophy usually lasts 2-3 months, strength maybe 2 months, power 1-1.5 months...

[tiramisu]

Let me ask the question again as I'm not sure I was clear except to Brandi. There seems to be very little quality research on hypertrophy. There is plenty on strength.

I have personally noticed that an increase in strength is not conjoined with a related increase in muscle size AND an increase in muscle size is not conjoined with a related increase in strength.

For example...

a) My arms just went nuts and grew fairly dramatically yet they haven't gotten significantly stronger.

b) My squat has weight has increased significantly but my legs have not grown.

I have found that it is likely that in the next 6 weeks or so my A) arms will get stronger and my B) legs will grow. What I find funny/interesting is that there is a disconnect/lag between hypertrophy and strength and wonder if I am confused (about this) or if this has been studied and found to be truish.

[JifeLacket]

It takes time to adapt so what you're seeing doesn't seem out of the ordinary.

Take into account the different systems being used ie CNS,which comes down to reps and effort basically... (obviously 5 reps at 50% is not a 'power' workout lol)

im trying to make sense of this myself... lets say person x has worked their way up to 15lb x 12 for curls. Next week person x decides to jump to 20's. They hit 12 reps but its harder obviously. Person x may take 2 weeks to fully adapt to the 20's so only at the end of the 2 weeks will person x see the total size/strength change required to accomidate 20's. Is this because the CNS is taking over for the 'muscular' system and then later when the muscular system can handle the load they switch?

[O-Train]

There is a relationship between muscle size and force output. You also have to consider the CNS system. A smaller muscle working more efficiently (CNS) may be able to move a heavier weight than a larger less efficient muscle.

Your muscles will respond specifically to how they are trained. So in very simplistic terms to get stronger it may make more sense for your muscle to become more efficient or larger. Both will occur but there will be an emphasis based on what the muscle is specifically adapting to.

There should always be a corresponding increase in force output when a muscle grows in size. Assuming the increase in size is related to muscle fiber hypertrophy. There could also be an increase in size from sarcoplasmic hypertrophy which is related more to energy production than force output.

I'm not exactly sure what your question is or how to answer it. (So I'll continue to ramble...) What Brandi is talking about is Henneman's Size Principle. Recruitment based on a graded response, slow twitch-> fast twitch and small motor units -> large motor units. Basically fine motor control progessing further and further until a maximum contraction/force output is reached.

This is a lot of the stuff I'm thinking about when I say things like "volume isn't necessary to achieve hypertrophy". You need to create damage at a cellular level to promote myofibrillar hypertrophy and also exhaust energy stores to create the need for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. This can be done over short high intensity periods. The other advantage is that muscle fiber requires time to "recover". So by limiting or removing rest periods you progressively use more and more muscle fibers, specifically larger motor units (also increase energy storage demands) and this promotes not only more muscular hypertrophy but also increased force output.

[GYMBRAT]

great info O-Train! I totally/completely believe in this same type of theory and always have!

[O-Train]

great info O-Train! I totally/completely believe in this same type of theory and always have!

Thanks. For me I have to understand why I'm doing something and what it will accomplish. So ideally a person should be able to sit down with "X" goal in mind and develop a plan to achieve "X" result.

[Big D]

These 2 seem to alternate for me to some extent.

I get stronger then I grow.
I grow then I get stronger.

I'm not sure if it's just because it takes time to train new meat to be useful or if there is a causal relation between the two. Obviously larger muscle has a mechanical advantage yet this is not so obviously born out when lifting. There is at a minimum a lag.

Has anyone seen any studies on the relationship between strength and hypertrophy?

I dont have time to read all the other post,

but ya this happens to me all the time, I totally understand were your comming from.

I see the scale go up first, then I get stronger.

[Brandi]

Thanks. For me I have to understand why I'm doing something and what it will accomplish. So ideally a person should be able to sit down with "X" goal in mind and develop a plan to achieve "X" result.

There is just so much to know.... a person could spend a lifetime learning and never really scratch the surface.

[GYMBRAT]

There is just so much to know.... a person could spend a lifetime learning and never really scratch the surface.

Exactly, and that's why I love this sport so much! Its a new experience every single day :)

[JifeLacket]

Yes! Talking about things like this is half the fun!

[GYMBRAT]

I agree!

[punkrock]

My growth seems to go:

More strength, then the size comes as I recover.
If I take a week off after hitting a plateau, I seem to look bigger after the week off.
Then I go again and I think It adds more striations to the new muscle bulk. While it's doing that, the muscle seems to get stonger and more toned.
My belief is that after it's packed with small striations (lean muscle mass) Then it adds on bulk less dense mucle mass. And jumps in cycles.

So:
1. Strength (lean mass)
2. Addition of New Mass (bulk)
3. Strengthening of Bulk into (lean)
4. Addition of New again.

It seems like this cycle length for me is determined by rest and recovery periods. This however is just how it seems to work for me.

[JifeLacket]

^ right on bro, every 4-6 weeks i have a deload phase (1 week) where i just hit every muscle lightly. The next week i am definitely refreshed and ready to go for the next month.

[MikeyFXD35]

Let me ask the question again as I'm not sure I was clear except to Brandi. There seems to be very little quality research on hypertrophy. There is plenty on strength.

I have personally noticed that an increase in strength is not conjoined with a related increase in muscle size AND an increase in muscle size is not conjoined with a related increase in strength.

For example...

a) My arms just went nuts and grew fairly dramatically yet they haven't gotten significantly stronger.

b) My squat has weight has increased significantly but my legs have not grown.

I have found that it is likely that in the next 6 weeks or so my A) arms will get stronger and my B) legs will grow. What I find funny/interesting is that there is a disconnect/lag between hypertrophy and strength and wonder if I am confused (about this) or if this has been studied and found to be truish.

I notice this years ago when working for a moving company. I was getting stronger but not growing. I was working with some pretty small dudes that were strong as hell but you would never tell by looking.

My theory, and I am on scientist is your muscles adapt to your work load. If you are working them hard everyday they will adapt and get stronger, why aren't they growing.....no rest. Bodybuilders blast a muscle and give it time to rebuild and repair . This will creates size but not necessarily strenght. If I'm at a point where I am not seeing gains, I take a break or cycle train the muscles at a littler load.

There are so many articles on muscle development, on saying something different, a power lifter's routine is a lot different from a bodybuilder. I feel strenght if just a byproduct of bodybuilding and shouldn't be the focus.