tapering off

[grader]

so i put about a year into researching my first cycle and now im at the halfway point and i realized.. i never really found out how to taper off safely so im hoping i can get some feedback and help on this.

im currently on my 11th week and am planning on running it out for 20 weeks. im using 500mg/2cc's of test cyp per week
and was planning on using nolvadex as pct

[Ritch]

Check out the thread at t-nation by prisoner. It`s in the stickies at the top of the page. I will be starting this process in about 4 weeks.

[GYMBRAT]

and it works wonderfully as well!

[meathead]

IMO tapering is old school bro.
Start PCT at 2 weeks after your last shot of cyp
20 weeks is a long first cycle, what kind of gains have you made so far?

[GYMBRAT]

definitely ol school but it works, ive tried almost every way under the sun and that particular protocol worked out best for me.

.....but hey ya gotta try till ya find what works for you yourself I guess ;)

I am old school ;)

[Ritch]

IMO tapering is old school bro.
Start PCT at 2 weeks after your last shot of cyp
20 weeks is a long first cycle, what kind of gains have you made so far?

Have you read the thread by prisoner? It`s not the usual tapering of doing 600mg then 500mg then 400mg. Anyway I`m gonna give it a run because no way do I think you should quit cold turkey after a 20 week run, which is what I am doing. You want to give your body some time to adjust and this program is meant to give you a smooth transition.

[GYMBRAT]

I agree ^^

[meathead]

Have you read the thread by prisoner? It`s not the usual tapering of doing 600mg then 500mg then 400mg. Anyway I`m gonna give it a run because no way do I think you should quit cold turkey after a 20 week run, which is what I am doing. You want to give your body some time to adjust and this program is meant to give you a smooth transition.


Haven't read that thread bro.

Have tried lots of PCT programs all with different outcomes.

I know there is lots of different opinions out there and I'm not saying this is the best but it works the best for me. It was done by Dr. Michael Scally.

I tried to re size the attachments but then you couldn't read it so its a little large ;) Its called the power PCT program

[meathead]

Have you read the thread by prisoner? It`s not the usual tapering of doing 600mg then 500mg then 400mg. Anyway I`m gonna give it a run because no way do I think you should quit cold turkey after a 20 week run, which is what I am doing. You want to give your body some time to adjust and this program is meant to give you a smooth transition.

F**cked up double post

[giannos]

Check out the thread at t-nation by prisoner. It`s in the stickies at the top of the page. I will be starting this process in about 4 weeks.

Hey Ritch, I'm gonna try this myself but a little confused. on the taper phase
Taper phase:

week 1-6

mg/ week: 80mg / 60mg/ 50mg/ 40mg/ 30 mg/ 20mg.

So that's about .32ml / .24ml / .2ml / .16ml / .12ml / .08ml

How can someone measure this ?? Are you planning on using a slin pin and going sub q ? It just seems really hard to get it accurate in a normal 3cc syringe.. :confused:

[ubcpower]

Does P22 post on this board?

[PdH]

definitely ol school but it works, ive tried almost every way under the sun and that particular protocol worked out best for me. I am old school ;)

Old school here as well. Tapering protocol was all we had when there was no such thing as PCT. I still use it in combo with PCT, and always will, because it provides an easy and effective transition.

[ironwill]

I wrote a bit about my taper approach, very simple and posted it on my bloodwork thread, it was followed by a very good set of bloodwork, checked everything, and was very successfull, doc was pretty impressed with what he saw, compared to what he was expecting...:fwave

[Ritch]

Does P22 post on this board?

He`s a member here but hasen`t posted much. I don`t think he posts much on T-nation these days but has been very cool in answering my questions I pm`d him. I`m very gratefull for this, especially when I had my abcess.

[Ritch]

Old school here as well. Tapering protocol was all we had when there was no such thing as PCT. I still use it in combo with PCT, and always will, because it provides an easy and effective transition.

I`ll be doing something like this, the statis for 8 weeks, the taper with nolva and aromasin, then after that period another short follow up with low doses of nolva and aromasin for another 2-3 weeks. After that will be running transmerdal formestane which seems to be huge in keeping gains post pct, but seems to be zero talk of it here for some reason.

I`m almost anxious for my cycle to be done, just to see how effective this approach will be. Plus I ran hcg the last 10 weeks of my cycle. I don`t see how much more conservative I could have been... As willie D says " I got it all planned out baby..."

[PdH]

After that will be running transmerdal formestane which seems to be huge in keeping gains post pct, but seems to be zero talk of it here for some reason.

I need to learn more about this. Thanks for posting the info Ritch.

[ironwill]

I`ll be doing something like this, the statis for 8 weeks, the taper with nolva and aromasin, then after that period another short follow up with low doses of nolva and aromasin for another 2-3 weeks. After that will be running transmerdal formestane which seems to be huge in keeping gains post pct, but seems to be zero talk of it here for some reason.

I`m almost anxious for my cycle to be done, just to see how effective this approach will be. Plus I ran hcg the last 10 weeks of my cycle. I don`t see how much more conservative I could have been... As willie D says " I got it all planned out baby..."
no need for aromasin and nolvadex.....Aromasin is the preferred choice....:)
also it is very simple, no need to make it a very complex situation......

[ironwill]

Description

CEL Formestane is an advanced estrogen control agent. It can be used as a stand alone, or as part of on cycle or post cycle therapy (PCT) estrogen control regimens. Formestane’s topical absorption matrix is designed to improve bioavailability for maximum results.

Formestane, also called 4-hydroxyandrostenedione, is known as a ‘suicide inhibitor’ of the aromatase enzyme. It reduces excess estrogen in the body by blocking the production of it from the androgenic precursors.

Formestane is thought to have an estimated half life of 12 hours, so dosage is generally divided into twice daily dosing.

Formestane is non-suppressive unlike ph products, and can be used to not only help combat estrogen, but also to help boost testosterone levels. Typical results include lean muscle and strength gains, fat loss, and increased libido.



Price $33.95
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Stand Alone Cycles:
Week 1: 200 mg per day; 100 mg (4 squirts) twice per day
Week 2: 200 mg per day; 100 mg (4 squirts) twice per day
Week 3: 200 mg per day; 100 mg (4 squirts) twice per day
Week 4: 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) twice per day

Notes:
• First time users may want to start out at 2 squirts twice per day to assess tolerance.
• The above is just a guideline. Individual dosage can be adjusting according to individual needs.
• Stacks very well with PCT Assist for improved, synergistic results.

PCT (Post Cycle Therapy) use:
Formestane would generally be started on Day 1 of PCT.
Week 1: 200 mg per day; 100 mg (4 squirts) twice per day
Week 2: 200 mg per day; 100 mg (4 squirts) twice per day
Week 3: 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) twice per day
Week 4: 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) twice per day

Notes:
• This is a general guideline. Individual dosage may vary according to cycle and cycle length.
• Stacks very well with PCT Assist and/or Suppress-C for Post Cycle Therapy use.

Formestane is commonly stacked with the following:
M-Drol, P-Plex, X-Tren, P-Mag, M1,4ADD, or EQ-Plex.

On Cycle Use:
Week 1: 50 to 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) 1 to 2 times daily
Week 2: 50 to 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) 1 to 2 times daily
Week 3: 50 to 100 mg per day; 50 mg (2 squirts) 1 to 2 times daily
Week 4: 25 to 50 mg per day; 25 mg (1 squirt) 1 to 2 times daily

Notes:
• Formestane is generally used on cycle to: help increase cycle effectiveness, help suppress estrogen, help prevent prolactin issues, and help improve libido.
• Week 4 should be half of week 3 dosing in order to taper off.
• Using Formestane on cycle generally leads to leaner, drier gains. For those looking for more mass with wetter gains, lower Formestane dosing may be advisable.



Supplement Facts

Serving Size: 4 squirts (4 ml)
Servings Per Container: 30

Amount Per Serving:
Formestane (4-hydroxyandrostenedione) – 100 mg

Other Ingredients: Isopropyl Alcohol, Benzyl Alcohol, Octyl Salicylate, Triglyceride Complex, Water, d-Limonene, Carbomer.



Directions

Apply 4 ml (4 squirts) to the skin 1 to 2 times daily, preferably spaced 8 to 12 hours apart.

For topical use, apply gel onto clean, dry skin and rub in thoroughly. Apply evenly on the inside of the thighs or the inside of the upper arms. Best is used after bathing and drying. Allow 1 to 5 minutes to dry.

Shake well before each application.

Do not use continuously for more than 4 weeks.



Warnings

Keep away from children. Do not ingest orally. Keep away from spark or flame. Consult a physician before using this or any dietary supplement. Not intended for females or anyone under 21 years of age. Do not take this product if you have prostate problems of any type. Avoid skin contact with children after administration.



* No claims found on this web page or in print have been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. No claim or opinion about weight loss, bodybuilding or general health on this web page is intended to be, nor should be construed to be, medical advice. Please consult with a healthcare professional before starting any weight loss diet or exercise program.


sounds very much like aromasin actually......all the same properties......except there is no need to taper aromasin....

[ironwill]

This is aromasin....

Aromasin
(exemestane)
Aromasin (Exemestane) is a steroidal suicide aromatase inhibitor, which means that it lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. (1)(2)(3)

This stuff was developed to fight breast cancer in post-menopausal women, who need a particularly aggressive therapy, and for whom first line defenses such as SERMS (Tamoxifen) have not worked. This should be our first clue in inferring that this stuff is pretty strong, or at least stronger than some of the other compounds which are used to fight breast cancer.

Aromasin and Side Effects
Aromasin averages an 85% rate of estrogen suppression (4), so it´s clearly a very effective agent for bodybuilders and other athletes wanting to avoid estrogen related side effects such as gyno, acne, or water-retention brought on by aromatizing steroids. Specifically, Exemestane dose this by selectively inhibiting aromatase activity in a time-dependent and irreversible manner (hence the "suicidal" portion of it´s name, I guess).(7)

As with most of the compounds in this class, it also causes a reasonable rise in testosterone levels (6), and as you may have guessed, this rise in testosterone means that Exemestane can also cause androgenic sides(8)(9)(10). As you can see from the chart below, exemestane is very effective at both lowering estrogen (estradiol) and raising testosterone:



FIG. 1. Estrogen and androgen plasma levels after 10 d of daily exemestane (25 or 50 mg) in healthy young males (mean ± SD; n = 9-11). To convert to Systeme International units: estradiol, picomoles per liter (x3.671); estrone, picomoles per liter (x3.699); androstenedione, nanomoles per liter (*0.003492); and testosterone, nanomoles per liter (x0.03467). (13)

So we can see that 25mgs is a very effective dose from that chart, right? As an added benefit, exemestane not only increases testosterone and lowers estrogen, but it also increases IGF levels (11).Additionally Worth noting is that Aromasin may possibly be less harsh on blood lipids (14)than some of the other (similar) compounds we use in the world of bodybuilding or athletics (other AI´s). It also has, at best no effect on IGF, and at worst could lower (13) it. AI´s are very tricky with regards to inconsistencies in IGF levels.

Unfortunately, you need to take Exemestane for a week to reach steady blood plasma levels of it, and exemestane has a ½ life of 27 hours (12.).

The ability of exemestane to lower estrogen levels by the aforementioned 85% makes it a very nice choice for use in any cycle where aromatizing steroids are used. In addition, since it´s not too harsh at all on blood lipid profiles, it´s a very good choice for longer cycles. It´s ability to raise both testosterone levels also seem to suggest that it would be a very nice addition to a Post-Cycle-Therapy (PCT).

References:





A predictive model for exemestane pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics incorporating the effect of food and formulation.Br J Clin Pharmacol. 2005 Mar;59(3):355-64.
Exemestane for breast cancer prevention: a feasible strategy?Clin Cancer Res. 2005 Jan 15;11(2 Pt 2):918s-24s.
Endocrinology and hormone therapy in breast cancer: Aromatase inhibitors versus antioestrogens, Anthony Howell1 and Mitch Dowsett2. 1CRUK Department of Medical Oncology, University of Manchester, Christie Hospital, Manchester, UK. 2Academic Department of Biochemistry, Royal Marsden Hospital, London, UK. Breast Cancer Res 2004, 6:269-274 doi:10.1186/bcr945. Published 6 October 2004
Eur. J. Cancer. 2000, May;36(8):976-82
Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1995;36(3):287-97.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.
Nippon Yakurigaku Zasshi. 2003 Oct;122(4):345-54.
Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1997 Nov-Dec;63(4-6):261-7
Anticancer Res. 2003 Jul-Aug;23(4):3485-91
Clin Cancer Res. 2003 Jan;9(1 Pt 2):468S-72S
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956Copyright © 2003 by The Endocrine Society
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Dec;88(12):5951-6.

[meathead]

Check out the thread at t-nation by prisoner. It`s in the stickies at the top of the page. I will be starting this process in about 4 weeks.

Hey Ritch, What form is it in?

[Ritch]

Hey Ritch, What form is it in?

Did you mean forum? It`s in the steroid forum. It`s stickied.

[Ritch]

no need for aromasin and nolvadex.....Aromasin is the preferred choice....:)
also it is very simple, no need to make it a very complex situation......

I`ve always read about the synergy between the nolvadex and aromasin. Or I could run the nolvadex to ensure quicker recovery during the 100mg of test a week period and run the aromasin during the taper. Still a few weeks to think about this. Could you fill me in on your aromasin protocol IW?

That was a good info spread on the formestane. Just wanted to let people know that you can buy the bulk powder which has 5 grams in the jar for about $17 and add it into a bottle of penetrate which costs $20 and will cost you about the same as the formula by CEL. But instead of having 3 grams of formestane, you have 5. So 3 bottles of CEL is the same cost as 2 bottles of penetrate and bulk formestane but you get an extra gram doing it yourself.

Besides the original craze was created by mixing it yourself. Grittyness is sometimes reported, but can be avoided by taking your time when you heat the penetrate and slowly add the formestane powder. A few people have already reported gritty formestane with the new CEL formula anyways. Not a big deal, but your paying much more for a finished product which so far has not proven itself to be better than buying bulk powder and penetrate. Can`t wait to try this stuff.

[ironwill]

I used to use nolvadex as my estrogen blocker, but i have felt it isnt preferred anymore as it does have a rebound effect...It doesnt stop the production of estrogen, it only binds to the estrogen itself making it less able to be taken up by the body, once the nolva has stoped being taken, you still have all that estrogen floating around that will be seen by the hpta as to high....The body will see this as an imbalance and stop test production again, and you will be still not producing......
The aromasin stops production by 85 percent, which is good as you need some estrogen in your body, and you arent left with an abundance floating in your system......Plus it has good benefits for keeping production of igf when using ......,.
I just ran aromasin starting at 12.5 mg per day as i was beginning my taper, then when i started hcg in my last week or 2 of my taper, i took it up to 25 mg per day to alleviate extra estrogen that will be building up on the back end......I ran it for i think 2 weeks after i stopped chlomid at 50 mg per day for 12 days as the hcg was finishing off, ill have to check my log as i wrote it in there... hcg was 300 ius eod
After i stopped the aromasin i felt great..
Then i did bloodwork to be sure all was good.....
I have everything written down and trying to remember as best i can off my head...i hope this makes sense....

[vanskelig]

the power PCT program sounds crazy! 50mg of clomid twice a day, 100mg a day? wowwow! i could be crying like a baby for 30 days! 5000ui of HCG every 4 days? wowowow!! that make me cycle look cheap!!

taper and go off. old school is working school.

[waderow]

the power PCT program sounds crazy! 50mg of clomid twice a day, 100mg a day? wowwow! i could be crying like a baby for 30 days! 5000ui of HCG every 4 days? wowowow!! that make me cycle look cheap!!

taper and go off. old school is working school.

this PCT is the only documented study of PCT that has proven to start up the HPTA after steroid use

[meathead]

this PCT is the only documented study of PCT that has proven to start up the HPTA after steroid use

That's exactly right ^^^

[meathead]

the power PCT program sounds crazy! 50mg of clomid twice a day, 100mg a day? wowwow! i could be crying like a baby for 30 days! 5000ui of HCG every 4 days? wowowow!! that make me cycle look cheap!!

taper and go off. old school is working school.

Its worth it in the end when you keep the majority of your gains and really its not that much $$$

[ironwill]

this PCT is the only documented study of PCT that has proven to start up the HPTA after steroid use

meh...maybe but there is more than 1 way to skin ze cat......
Bloodwork can also show that all is well and doesnt honestly require so much hcg imo, or chlomid...imo....
Remember 1 thing guys...we throw around anti es like candy these days, and they are very potent cancer drugs, not bodybuilder drugs...less is best....
I know mine worked as i had blood tests several times to prove it and didnt take nearly that much anticancer drugs as they are taking....
different strokes, that is just my personal view on this subject....what do i know?

[waderow]

agreed, as many people have success off of straight nolva PCT....

My last PCT could have been better. Kept most gains, but my peepee didnt work so good for a long time.

This is a powerful and quick PCT which is documented to work.

I like it myself, and will run it this cycle.

[meathead]

meh...maybe but there is more than 1 way to skin ze cat......
Bloodwork can also show that all is well and doesnt honestly require so much hcg imo, or chlomid...imo....
Remember 1 thing guys...we throw around anti es like candy these days, and they are very potent cancer drugs, not bodybuilder drugs...less is best....
I know mine worked as i had blood tests several times to prove it and didnt take nearly that much anticancer drugs as they are taking....
different strokes, that is just my personal view on this subject....what do i know?

I believe the reasoning behind the power PCT using HCG at such a high level but for a short time is because the testies become desensitized with prolonged use. From what I have read long term use can cause permanent damage to the testies if used to long making recovery very difficult.

This is one reason I get so mad when I hear of people passing HCG off as HGH.

No doubt anti E's are powerful and should be used with caution as any drug should be.

Ironwill what dosage of clomid do you run for PCT or do you use any?

[meathead]

agreed, as many people have success off of straight nolva PCT....

My last PCT could have been better. Kept most gains, but my peepee didnt work so good for a long time.

This is a powerful and quick PCT which is documented to work.

I like it myself, and will run it this cycle.

Very true ^^^ I also have had very good success using the Power PCT. Testies up and running very fast as well as keeping the majority of my gains. Different people do it different ways but I find this way works the best for me.

[vanskelig]

Its worth it in the end when you keep the majority of your gains and really its not that much $$$

for me yes, a 5000ui bottle of HCG is as much as a vial of prop. more.

[meathead]

for me yes, a 5000ui bottle of HCG is as much as a vial of prop. more.

I would start looking for a better source bro ;)

[Thorgrim]

Hey Ritch,

I noticed in this thread you mentioned that you would be tapering and I think you mentioned you were in the process of it in some other threads I came across a while ago.

How did it go? Did you do the stasis taper method outlined on t-nation?