Carb-cycling

[ironwill]

i found great success in carb cycling to achieve contest condition...i did 4-5 days low carbs, less than 150 grams pr day, mostly in the am, and post workout...Then 1 day higher carbs at around 350-400 grams and then repeated..I kept my fats a bit high throughout the whole process...How do you guys feel about carbcycle diets, or do you enjoy a more anabolic, or keto type diet for the most part??
hope to hear some experiences from guys that have tried both...Or any other type diets ou there..

[Andre]

I think the carb cycling concept works well for those who are already in decent shape (under 15% BF)... When I was very heavy (over 25% BF) I tried it and 2 days off with high carbs and it brought me out of Ketosis for double that amount of time... right now I am trying a moderate carb diet keep all starch and sugar only in lunch and earlier in meals and this is allowing me to make some gains and at the same time get leaner... if/when I decide to do a contest I will most likely go with a similar type of diet you are talking about...

[baza]

I am far from contest shape, but I have been carb cycling for several months and it has worked great. I don't do as many low days as you, which I think brings slower fat loss, but for me, helped me add muscle mass, and increase strength while losing bf.
Mine is more like
1: 200
2: 160
3: 120
4: 80
5: 120 (160 if leg day)
6: 80
7: Would either be a clean carb up with 500-600g carbs, or just a cheat day with anything, and repeat.


And as of last 4-6 weeks I've been adding about 6-10g of fat to each carb meal (first four). Stopped cardio, and dropped more bf then probably three months prior.

[hyperlite32]

Carb-cycling is a great way to sustain muscle mass, keep you sane, while slowly stripping off bodyfat without losing a excess of muscle. Keeping a good EFA ratio is improtant as well.

Anyone else?

[JonnyO]

I have used carb cycling in the past and it works very good. I didnt this year, I just kept lowering my carbs each week and didnt hit a plateau, which is when I would normally start to cycle carbs. If I were to utilize cheat days I would definately incorporate carb cycling then as well. It's been around for a long time, I dont know why some people think Shelby and Justin Harris have come up with something new I thought it was common knowledge in BBing....not pertaining to this post though IW just in general and on some other boards peoples reactions.

[Praetorian]

Ive done both diets many times....I will never do carb cycling again however...its just not as efficient and it is much too easy to drop muscle on.
P

[JonnyO]

Ive done both diets many times....I will never do carb cycling again however...its just not as efficient and it is much too easy to drop muscle on.
P

I've found it better to maintain muscle personally, but more than one way to skin a cat.

[4031]

i personally enjoy a keto diet, i have less mood swings but my training really suffers. the carb cycling is good when its a high carb day but the low carb days are hell, the good thing though is my training is always good a carb cycle diet,but i guess all diets are hell,lol

[Rhinobolt10]

I've been working with Shelby Starnes lately... not for contest prep... but just general health type stuff doing carb cycling... it's been great and fairly easy. Very limited food choices... but now that I've cut out dairy all my allergies and sinus problems are gone.

I'm down about 15 lbs... strength is up in some lifts and back where it used to be in others... haven't seemed to have lost muscle...

[C-money]

I've found it better to maintain muscle personally, but more than one way to skin a cat.

Me too... i just finished my first go at keto.... and i prefer carb cycling, slower fat loss, but a better end result for me.

[Praetorian]

I've found it better to maintain muscle personally, but more than one way to skin a cat.

Just an FYI as to why I said above...

On a keto diet the brain uses ketones for fuel...it is not looking for glucose because of the endless supply of ketones...thus the reason you dont feel as hungry, lethargic etc on a keto diet. Thus without the need for glucose amino acid levels (muscle tissue) are maintained.

On a low carb low fat diet the brain uses glucose for fuel. However, there is only a LIMITED supply because it is a low carb diet which is necessary in order to drop body fat. This raises many issues...when one carb cycles and has lower carb days the body is starved for glucose...BUT not for long...it can find glucose and it does in the form of amino acid conversion known as neoglucogenesis....the conversion of amino acids (muscle tissue) into glucose. This does NOT happen on a keto diet...and will not happen unless you do HIT cardio...which is why on a keto diet you keep your heart rate under 130bpm.

These principles are inherent to every human body...some people do better than others on a low carb diet mainly because they are less carb sensitive...this does not mean however that they wouldnt do even better on a keto diet.
P

[JonnyO]

Very good explanation P.

[z83]

I wish I had your knowledge P

:P

[ironwill]

Just an FYI as to why I said above...

On a keto diet the brain uses ketones for fuel...it is not looking for glucose because of the endless supply of ketones...thus the reason you dont feel as hungry, lethargic etc on a keto diet. Thus without the need for glucose amino acid levels (muscle tissue) are maintained.

On a low carb low fat diet the brain uses glucose for fuel. However, there is only a LIMITED supply because it is a low carb diet which is necessary in order to drop body fat. This raises many issues...when one carb cycles and has lower carb days the body is starved for glucose...BUT not for long...it can find glucose and it does in the form of amino acid conversion known as neoglucogenesis....the conversion of amino acids (muscle tissue) into glucose. This does NOT happen on a keto diet...and will not happen unless you do HIT cardio...which is why on a keto diet you keep your heart rate under 130bpm.

These principles are inherent to every human body...some people do better than others on a low carb diet mainly because they are less carb sensitive...this does not mean however that they wouldnt do even better on a keto diet.
Pwhat if you kept a very high protein intake every 2 hours eating....would the body convert the amino acids from your stomach first....Or would it go to the muscle tissue for aminos....from what i have read it will go to gut first, then tissue, so in essence one could do low carb, semi low fat diet and medium cardio for healthy heart....and maintain muscle mass in the process....while altering the ratios every part of the cycle....on a higher carb day, alittle less protein to keep overall calories low for example..

[Mastagon]

what if you kept a very high protein intake every 2 hours eating....would the body convert the amino acids from your stomach first....Or would it go to the muscle tissue for aminos....from what i have read it will go to gut first, then tissue

Those were my thoughts to. Like an energy conversion/absorption system (digestive track) vs storage system (the body itself). In my mind, the 1st one's potential for energy sources is always "on," (e.g food in? here we go!) while the body needs a something to flick the switch (e.g calorie deficit or lack of availability of some kind of energy (like glucose?), to become a useful source of energy.

Anyway. That's just logic talking, and might be all wrong.

[prettymuscles78]

In my experience I have tried both diets and did my first show last weekend from a Ketogenic diet.. I loved it and achieved great results - My protein / fat days became a treat.

[JacktheThriller]

id like to read some science on the specifics of carb cycling. ANYONE???

[Praetorian]

what if you kept a very high protein intake every 2 hours eating....would the body convert the amino acids from your stomach first....Or would it go to the muscle tissue for aminos....from what i have read it will go to gut first, then tissue, so in essence one could do low carb, semi low fat diet and medium cardio for healthy heart....and maintain muscle mass in the process....while altering the ratios every part of the cycle....on a higher carb day, alittle less protein to keep overall calories low for example..

If you eat protein every two hours you are adding excess calories...remember you need to be in a calorie deficit to lose body fat. You cannot eat more protein than what is required otherwise fat loss will slow or even come to a halt. With carbs in your diet the body will first burn those for energy...once this is done it has to utilize something else...ie bodyfat or amino acids. Thus the option to convert amino acids is there...on a keto diet this option does not exist...thus there is little chance of losing any muscle. As a real world example a client of mine competed in 2007 Mississauga level 1 working with another coach...he came in at 183lbs at 5"7 and took 11th dead last in the LHW using the carb cycling low fat diet. In 2008 he chose to work with me and we utilized a keto diet. He came 1st in the LHW at 197.5lbs. His offseason was identical to the year before so the odds of gaining this much muscle are very low...hes also been training for years. The difference was incredible and muscle loss the year previous was obvious.
P

[JonnyO]

Keto diets work. Carb diets work. Both work, some respond to one better then the other. More than one way to skin a cat. I've seen guys look horrible on a keto diet and come back with a carb diet and look incredible. And as Praet just mentioned his guy went to a keto from a carb diet and look great.

Who knows if its even whether some respond to one better than the other really? I think when done properly by someone who knows WTF they are doing, your going to look great with whatever diet you use, Keto or using carbs.

I'll give the rundown of my diet when i start prepping for the Canadians next year an I dont even know how it will be, keto or carbs not sure. But right now I am taking in a lot of good fats from my food sources. Butter from grass fed cows and Coconut oil are about the only fats I do add when cooking. But am also eating a high amount of carbs too and I havent stayed this lean in the off season ever before because of the food choices I believe and the fats/nutrients in them.

[ironwill]

But right now I am taking in a lot of good fats from my food sources. Butter from grass fed cows and Coconut oil are about the only fats I do add when cooking. But am also eating a high amount of carbs too and I havent stayed this lean in the off season ever before because of the food choices I believe and the fats/nutrients in them.[/QUOTE]

ditto, im loving it.....255 and pretty damn hard....never had this look this heavy prior to this yr.....Good luck for the next yr JO.....its going to be a good one..

[Praetorian]

But right now I am taking in a lot of good fats from my food sources. Butter from grass fed cows and Coconut oil are about the only fats I do add when cooking. But am also eating a high amount of carbs too and I havent stayed this lean in the off season ever before because of the food choices I believe and the fats/nutrients in them.[/QUOTE]

ditto, im loving it.....255 and pretty damn hard....never had this look this heavy prior to this yr.....Good luck for the next yr JO.....its going to be a good one..

You are offseason and in a calorie surplus thus the rules as per dieting do not apply here. You will look bettter/worse depending on your food choices yes...better choices...better look! ;o)
P

[Praetorian]

Keto diets work. Carb diets work. Both work, some respond to one better then the other. More than one way to skin a cat. I've seen guys look horrible on a keto diet and come back with a carb diet and look incredible. And as Praet just mentioned his guy went to a keto from a carb diet and look great.

Who knows if its even whether some respond to one better than the other really? I think when done properly by someone who knows WTF they are doing, your going to look great with whatever diet you use, Keto or using carbs.

I'll give the rundown of my diet when i start prepping for the Canadians next year an I dont even know how it will be, keto or carbs not sure. But right now I am taking in a lot of good fats from my food sources. Butter from grass fed cows and Coconut oil are about the only fats I do add when cooking. But am also eating a high amount of carbs too and I havent stayed this lean in the off season ever before because of the food choices I believe and the fats/nutrients in them.

Yes both diets work...but the point im trying to make is efficiency. Keto is more efficient and a much easier diet to follow. Less hunger, insulin levels are much more stable, no mood swings, constant fat loss, no need for HIT cardio etc. A carb cycling diet will not work for everyone...it does work for those who are not carb sensitive however if you are carb sensitive you will have trouble getting down to the very low BF %'s required to be competitive.
In a carb cycling diet the bodies preference of fuel is glucose thus it will burn ingested carbs first...prior to BF...on a keto diet the fuel of preference is ketones...ie bodyfat thus it does not need to burn glucose...it constantly burns bodyfat or essential fatty acids.This makes it more efficient....carb cycling is like walking up stairs 2 stairs at a time and back down one...then 2 more than back down one....you still get to the top however it not as efficient.
P

[ironwill]

You are offseason and in a calorie surplus thus the rules as per dieting do not apply here. You will look bettter/worse depending on your food choices yes...better choices...better look! ;o)
P

slight calorie surplus correct..........Lots of food changes though.....only 1 shake per day ....Lovin it....

[ironwill]

Yes both diets work...but the point im trying to make is efficiency. Keto is more efficient and a much easier diet to follow. Less hunger, insulin levels are much more stable, no mood swings, constant fat loss, no need for HIT cardio etc. A carb cycling diet will not work for everyone...it does work for those who are not carb sensitive however if you are carb sensitive you will have trouble getting down to the very low BF %'s required to be competitive.
In a carb cycling diet the bodies preference of fuel is glucose thus it will burn ingested carbs first...prior to BF...on a keto diet the fuel of preference is ketones...ie bodyfat thus it does not need to burn glucose...it constantly burns bodyfat or essential fatty acids.This makes it more efficient....carb cycling is like walking up stairs 2 stairs at a time and back down one...then 2 more than back down one....you still get to the top however it not as efficient.
P
i dont know about that .....Damn JO was pretty friggin sliced and diced and was eating carbs like crazy....If im not mistaken, whatever he did, he was damn , damn dry...

[natenator]

i dont know about that .....Damn JO was pretty friggin sliced and diced and was eating carbs like crazy....If im not mistaken, whatever he did, he was damn , damn dry...
I believe JO also stayed fairly lean going into his prep and dieted for 9-10 weeks? Perhaps if utilizing a keto style diet he may have only needed to diet for 6 weeks?

I don't know and really the only thing that matters is doing each style properly to see what corresponds best to you and not just in terms of the finished product looks but also how you feel during it.

[ironwill]

I believe JO also stayed fairly lean going into his prep and dieted for 9-10 weeks? Perhaps if utilizing a keto style diet he may have only needed to diet for 6 weeks?

I don't know and really the only thing that matters is doing each style properly to see what corresponds best to you and not just in terms of the finished product looks but also how you feel during it.

Yeah im not sure what he started as....agreed with last statement though.....

[Praetorian]

i dont know about that .....Damn JO was pretty friggin sliced and diced and was eating carbs like crazy....If im not mistaken, whatever he did, he was damn , damn dry...

My point exactly...some people who are not carb sensitive will repond well to the typical low carb low fat diet...however this is not to say that he wouldnt have responded even better to a keto diet. Anecdotal evidence such as so and so did this diet and looked great is innaccurate and untrue because you cannot compare specific diets unless the subject does both and and both times an identical comparison test is completed. I myself have done both diets many times and have had many clients do them as well...so I can say from experience and a direct comparison which one worked more efficiently.
As well being dry and being lean are different things again...one can be lean but not dry...one can also be very dry but flat...being dry...once you are lean has more to do with carb/sodium/water manipulation than diet. Ive seen many guys dry as a bone but flat as a pancake which does not bode well for BB. Other times guys are not lean and complain that they are holding water...hate to break the news but unless you spell water FAT you arent hodling water lol.
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[baza]

As I've posted before, I've done CKD for years, but I would always get stuck around 10ish%. Tried upping cardio, more cardio, upping calories for a week, etc.
When I did CKD I was taking in roughly 2800 calories. I tried dropping a few hundred, but many recommended that, that was too low. I tried 4000 for a week, to change things up, but that didn't do anything either.

This year, after months and months of many trials and errors, I found carb cycling work best for me. And I was taking around 2100-2300 calories daily. I never feel flat, but I'm taking VPX shotgun now, so it's hard to say if that is helping keeping me looking full. But also because it's cycling, I shouldn't be that flat. When I did CKD, come end of the week, I felt very flat, and like I was carrying water. And I was doing regular CKD not Palumbo, so I was eating bacon, etc, so probalby carrying more than normal water.

I'd like to try CKD again and go lower in calories to see how it will work, but carb cycling worked so well for me, and is so easy for me, I don't know if I want to step away from it.

[Praetorian]

Again...running a CKD is not running a keto diet...huge difference. The other issue is running a cookie cutter diet without making the correct weekly modifications etc is not running the diet correctly. To make an accurate comparison you have to run both diets correctly. Even taking the Palumbo diet and running it on your own for 16 weeks will not result in optimum success...you need to understand the changes necessary each week. Many people run keto and ckd diets incorrectly or inefficiently and get poor results and then blame the diet. Thats like buying a Porsche and putting diesel fuel in it and then saying man i thought Porche's were supposed to be fast...they suck.
P

[baza]

Yes, I know. I forgot to mention, one of the reasons I also haven't done Palumbo was I was playing football, and other physical activities, which Palumbo's diet isn't really ideal for.

[JonnyO]

Actually when I began my last prep I was 13 weeks out, started with a keto diet, hated it, hated the way I looked. I ate my way back up 15lbs, maintained 12lbs of that while losing bodyfat with the carbs until 2-3 weeks out from 9 weeks out.

[Mastagon]

I have always done low carb, low fat diets. I seem to always drop a decent amount of fat, but muscle loss is an issue, and I'm starting to dislike HIT cardio... I like the points Praetorian made, so Keto will be my choice next time around.

[Praetorian]

Actually when I began my last prep I was 13 weeks out, started with a keto diet, hated it, hated the way I looked. I ate my way back up 15lbs, maintained 12lbs of that while losing bodyfat with the carbs until 2-3 weeks out from 9 weeks out.

JO if you were extremely lean off carb cycling you would look crazy sick on keto if you gave it a chance...i mean crazy sick!!! But you'd need to runit correctly.
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[ironwill]

:flowers
I guess George farrah dont know shit.....lol:)
pretty sure he trains pros and makes pros????wtf do i know, i havent even won my first show yet.....just seems a bit arrogant to assume that one diet is be all end all, and all the other top guys are wrong???

[JonnyO]

JO if you were extremely lean off carb cycling you would look crazy sick on keto if you gave it a chance...i mean crazy sick!!! But you'd need to runit correctly.
P

Who knows, but my body handles carbs very well. I lost weight way too fast and got freaked out over the Keto diet. I've trained guys on Keto diets for shows before, they are always sliced, but same with carbs...one guy last weekend took 1st in the lightheavies and was by far the most conditioned guy there, with carbs.

Maybe for me something like going with carbs first and getting my bodyfat down, then going with a Keto the last 6 weeks would do well for me.

Not sure what type of diet John will have me use for next year.

[Praetorian]

:flowers
I guess George farrah dont know shit.....lol:)
pretty sure he trains pros and makes pros????wtf do i know, i havent even won my first show yet.....just seems a bit arrogant to assume that one diet is be all end all, and all the other top guys are wrong???

Having an open mind allows people to accept things such as even though what they are doing works...there just might be a better way. This has been proven over and over again...ie westside barbell training, HIT training...Dorian chose to follow something against the norm...at the time 90% of all trainers and BB's trained volume...he revolutionized the sport. If he followed the thinking above he would have never achieved his true potential and brought a new concept to training to BB's worldwide. DC training is another example of this. No one said the low fat low carb diet doesnt work or that individual trainers do not know anything...that is petty...there are a score of so called gurus out their and if you go by this theory none of them know anything because they each have specific ideas on what works. I also agreed that other diets work and please copy and paste where I said the other top guys are wrong....my point was efficiency. There are keto proponents who start with a low carb diet and move into keto as things progress...the point being just because everyone does things one way doesnt make it correct or the best...it is very difficult to go against the norm because of the opposition you will face.
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[Praetorian]

Who knows, but my body handles carbs very well. I lost weight way too fast and got freaked out over the Keto diet. I've trained guys on Keto diets for shows before, they are always sliced, but same with carbs...one guy last weekend took 1st in the lightheavies and was by far the most conditioned guy there, with carbs.

Maybe for me something like going with carbs first and getting my bodyfat down, then going with a Keto the last 6 weeks would do well for me.

Not sure what type of diet John will have me use for next year.

That is a very typical reaction...most people panic in the first few weeks because they have been conditioned to believe that carbs are necessary to retain muscle...this is false. The only essential macro nutrients the body requires are fatty acids and amino acids...hence the term essential. If the diet contained enough essential fats you wouldnt lose an ounce of muscle.
P

[btufts]

P, how many grams of EFA does one need to not lose any muscle while on a keto? I want to make sure i'm getting enough as i lose weight